0:09

Hi Jaime. How you doing?

Jamie: 1:13

Good. How are you?

Guy: 1:14

Good. Welcome back to The Davenport.

Jamie: 1:16

Good to be here. I just got my second vaccination for COVID

Guy: 1:19

Congratulations

Jamie: 1:20

So I guess I have about 12 hours until I have a fever and I'm sick in bed. So we'll see.

Guy: 1:27

Sinking down onto the Devonport. Feel free to lay down if you need to.

Jamie: 1:31

I hope I don't get sick but it's Friday so if i do i have time to be sick.

Guy: 1:36

I think we're what are we looking at September maybe Erin, for us?

Jamie: 1:41

The teachers are on the list now. So teachers were down there getting vaccinated.

Guy: 1:45

I love it. It's like you won on the Price Is Right or something. The teachers! The cannabis workers were last week. There's some random ones that pop up and you're like, oh, they're...? Oh, that's higher priority? Okay.

Jamie: 1:59

I was glad that mental health made it. So I was on the list. And so and then my husband was one of the first vaccinated because he works in a hospital. And so now my parents are waiting for their second one. And then I feel like I we'll be we'll feel a lot better being around my parents after we're all vaccinated.

Guy: 2:15

Yeah, yeah. It's peace of mind.

Jamie: 2:17

so it was good in there was no line today. And I got right in and got my shot. But I did drive home with my waving my hand in the air. So I was like punching the air because the nurse was like, you'll have a lot less pain if you keep moving your arm. And after the first vaccine, I was like sleeping on a heating pad because my arm was so sore.

Guy: 2:38

Like, is it like a peanut butter shot?

Jamie: 2:40

No. You don't even feel it. You're just like, it's an easy shot. And I've done seven In Vitro's. Like I've given myself so many shots. So it's not a shot that you're like, Oh, that's a scary shot. You don't even feel it. And then they're like, okay, you have to wait for 15 minutes. So it's not like that muscular kind of shot.

Guy: 2:58

Right, right. I'm thinking like tetanus, or.

Jamie: 3:00

There must be something with the serum that makes you so sore. Something we'll have to ask your wife. She's the nurse.

Guy: 3:08

Yeah, this week, it's been a, it's been a good week, I think. We have an interesting topic today. We can kind of jump into. It's an article that I have here from a doctor Kathy Koch. I've become kind of a fan of hers lately. She's a educational psychologist. I looked at her background a little and she's a well known. Speaker presenter talks a lot about kids and education, and parenting. She founded celebrating kids, which is a resource for children. I think she has a ministry and some things like that.

Jamie: 3:41

Yeah, I mean, she's really I mean, every time I've listened to or read anything, it's really her stuffs really good.

Guy: 3:49

Yeah. So this is one aspect of, of one. It's funny the story of how this came to be, you know, you get on Netflix, and you just kind of start clicking through things.

Jamie: 3:58

Yeah. And you're like, oh, I've watched all of that.

Guy: 4:01

Yeah, one thing leads to another. And I ended up on a Kirk Cameron movie, which I was like, oh, Growing Pains, where's he been since Growing Pains. And so I started watching it. And it was about connection, I think is what the title of it was. And it was about kids and raising strong children, but also the influence of technology and screens and things like that, and how it can be detrimental. And one of the people he interviewed was this Dr. Kathy Koch. And I don't remember the rest of the movie. But I do this stuck with me to the point that I went back and looked it up and I've kind of looked into her stuff more.

Jamie: 4:39

Yeah. And as you send it to me, what's interesting is, you know, after we recorded last week, when we all got we just got dinner and watched that Fake Famous show on HBO. It that was a fascinating piece of this kind of puzzle. Right? Even as adults we get sucked into the lies that technology gives us. And and you see something and you're like, almost take it what's on social media as news. But it's not. I mean, we have to be so careful. And we need to, we need to, I think have a more analytical mind as we take information in. Right? And just be more discretionary about what's truth and what isn't. So that that documentary was fascinating to me. And so then as I was studying for today's episode, I was like, yeah, this is this is good stuff

Guy: 5:32

Well, there's been a string of these documentaries, right? Yeah, The Social Dilemma [show] was a good one that was that first salvo out to say, hey, this isn't what you think it is.

Jamie: 5:41

Yeah, I remember my I had my daughter watch The Social Dilemma. And she just handed me her phone afterwards. She's like, Here, you can have it. But I mean, it didn't last long. But she

Guy: 5:51

I think we all had that same reaction, right? That there's that imagery in there, where they're the people at the computer and like, oh, he did this. So we're gonna send this we're gonna send, like you're being manipulated. And it doesn't feel good. But we are, but we are. So Fake Famous kind of builds on that. And what can we do with that. And you know, how can you game the system?

Jamie: 6:11

And then they do, and they do. I mean, it's really crazy. It's crazy. What What's happening? And so, but then, as a parent, you think, gosh, how do I are my kids so that they approach this?

Guy: 6:24

Because this isn't going away. Like, what can I do?

Jamie: 6:26

Yeah, right. And I think education is power. I think conversation builds connection. And connection is what keeps you safe. I mean, it's just the reality of it. And so not connected to your device, either. I mean, like, human connection.

Guy: 6:43

Wired. Yeah, the human nature to be connected with other humans. So the the title of this article, and you can search for this online, too, is called combating technologies lies. And she has five lies, that technology tells our kids Yeah, and so we're gonna go into each one of them. But I'd like Yeah. As listener, you know, be thinking how this shows up in your life or your child's life.

Jamie: 7:11

and what's interesting is young moms, like if you're under 40, you're gonna This is gonna be your life, too. Like you're, but like, someone might be so what? At my age. Like, I remember life before we were connected to the web. I remember life, when we didn't carry around a device. Like I remember. I mean, I was well into my adult life when that began. And so these lies. I think we'll have some funny stories too because I had a lot of memories jogged, while reading her article.

Guy: 7:48

Well, even when, like, you think of the iPhone, and really, you know, smartphones? Yeah. I mean, what's that 2007... it feels like it's way longer than that.

Jamie: 7:59

Remember when you had the palm like, I remember getting the palm for one of my jobs and, and that you could like, send your information like if someone else put their palm next to yours. Not like your plam. But like the, the younger the young generation,

Guy: 8:15

It was called the Palm Pilot

Jamie: 8:16

Palm Pilot. Yes. And it had a stylus. And I thought that was like, Oh my gosh, this is cutting edge. And I lived in Phoenix, and I left it in the car one day, and it totally like melted. I was like, I came out and I'm like, Oh, it's like 130 kajillion degree.

Guy: 8:31

I think I still had a pager when you had a Palm Pilot but uh,

Jamie: 8:38

you know, like, and now once the smartphone came out, it just seems like every year it's getting faster and, and bigger and more access to more things. And it's just like, the growth has been so astronomical and so quick,

Guy: 8:52

and the integration into our lives.

Jamie: 8:54

And everyone has it. Like you can go to any country. Go anywhere. And you can be dialed in.

Guy: 9:01

Yeah. So we'll get into the the lies here. I think one thing that's interesting, I just had a thought here. The universality of that, right? We all have these phones. It's so with Donald, we think we all have the same thing. Yeah, we're all connected. We're all alike. And the reality is what's on that phone is so vastly different for each one of us. That it's it's lying to us. Because back in the day, the newspaper was the same newspaper for everyone on your street. You all watch the same TV shows. I'm sure if we were happy days Brady Bunch. Love Boat. It was all the same shows chips chips. By hazard. Starsky and Hutch back in the day. But you related around that because everyone watched had the same experience. And now the experience is so diverse, that we still think we're moving together. But the reality is, we're not So the first lie that then gets generated is that I am the center of my own universe.

Jamie: 10:06

Yeah. Which I think is pretty normal for kids to feel that, you know, like, when I was thinking, Okay, how does the phone teach that? Well, I think we thought that too growing up, right? Like,

Guy: 10:17

yeah, it's all about me.

Jamie: 10:18

Yeah. Well, of course, I can do that. I mean, and your parents would be like, No, you can't do that. But I think what the phone does is, and this is what's fascinating, is I'll watch my daughter, well, I'll see it on myself, like, the phone will ring. And I know, I don't have time to take this call, I can see who's calling. I love the person who's calling. I'm like, I do not have time to have a conversation, you know. So instead of saying, hey, it's so good to hear from you. Can I call you back? Now's not a good time, we just let it go to voicemail. Right? Well, when I was 13, we're like running to the phone to answer it. You know, like, everyone's like, the final cut the phone. And it was just this thing that was on the wall with a long cord. And you know, like you didn't know who was calling. But you would pick up and be like, hello. And it was a fun surprise. Surprise. And, and then I can remember in high school, when caller ID came out, then you could kind of be selective, like, Oh, that's the business, don't answer it or whatever. And then you would kind of watch for, you know, the boy, you wanted to call you like, Oh my gosh, that's him? Don't answer on the first ring. Like there would be you know, and now these kids, it's like everything is if I want to answer I will. If I want that song on my playlist, I just push the plus sign. If I I mean, it's just a constant state of I want this. And so I'm gonna get it.

Guy: 11:45

Yeah. And how does that show up then in a family dynamic? If you can opt into responding or picking up the phone, or, you know, kind of choosing what you're going to listen to what you're going to watch? I mean, think of all the choices you have to watch on TV. Yeah, we had like, four channels. And then we got cable and you had like 20 channels.

Jamie: 12:04

Yeah. I think, you know, when I when I think about this, like being the center of the universe, I think about the idea of these kids can just like buy a song. And they're creating playlists as they're getting the song. And they're not buying a song, right? where their parents have a subscription to iTunes or Spotify or whatever. So everyone in the household is just like, I want that. And we're just like, show up, right? Just, it's just there. And it's there forever. And, and then they can just pull up the lyrics. They can I mean, they have all kinds of fun with with whatever they're downloading. And I thought back to when I was in high school, those of you who were born in the 70s, or remember Columbia house, does anyone remember the like, you can't get 30 to join. It was like a subscription box, right? Like today's world. Like, you could get 13 cassettes for$1.99. And then you had to buy one every month. So my dad, my mom and dad are music junkies.

Guy: 13:01

And this was a to join was a paper thing you filled out and mailed it in, like and then you just hoped it showed up at some point.

Jamie: 13:09

And then you would get weeks later,

Guy: 13:11

your process was like eight weeks,

Jamie: 13:13

and it was little stamps of the cassettes that you wanted. And so then you would like have to, like lick the stamp and put it on the paper like I want The Cure Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me. Or I want Michael Jackson Thriller, you know, and you're put these little pictures on.

Guy: 13:28

Like a craft project pretty much. I totally remember that. It would come in the mail is big packet. Junk mail. The stamps. Have them all apart and pick you out. And then you'd stick it to it. And I had to get it all right. Otherwise, you get the wrong one.

Jamie: 13:44

And my dad, I just thought it was the coolest thing that my dad was doing to music and he wanted and he was part of Columbia house. And then he would let us kids take turns picking up cassettes. And I can remember. So I'm going to go back to The Cure. I got The Cure. Shout out to The Cure fans

Guy: 13:59

Did I ever tell you the story of driving them as a limo driver?

Jamie: 14:02

No. Oh.

Guy: 14:03

I've met the cure. Sorry, you weren't there.

Jamie: 14:06

They're like so iconic for my high school years. So I wanted I was obsessed with the love song, their song The love song. And so I bought this cassette really that at the time that was the only song I really I knew a couple that other songs but I was so obsessed with the song. So I bought I took out the little stamp and I put The Cure on there.

Guy: 14:26

And then mailed it away and hoped for the best.

Jamie: 14:28

Yeah, like weeks later, this box comes in it's got 13 cassette tapes in it, you know, and I'm getting in the car with my dad and and those of you who remember that the cover of this album, it's like a mouth with the tongue and it's just like the open mouth and my dad's like, is this Is this yours? And I was like, yes! And we and my dad and I get in the station wagon together...

Guy: 14:52

He hadn't seen what Robert Smith looked like

Jamie: 14:54

Right. And so I remember unwrapping it and putting it in the cassette in the car.

Guy: 14:59

For everybody?

Jamie: 15:00

No, just my dad and I were in the car. My dad probably doesn't remember this experience. There's a lot of things he's like did that happen? But I remember putting the tape in. And the first song I didn't know. But it was just like, the F word was flying everywhere, you know, and my dad's looking at me, I was probably like, 13 or 14, you know, maybe eighth grade. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I was like trying to, for these kids. Now you just like, swipe your phone, and it stops. And I'm like, trying to turn it off, and I can't and my dad's like, Oh, my gosh. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't know. And there's no E on the cassette tape thing explicit.

Guy: 15:37

I think that was the beginning of that. The you know, the whole heavy metal, Satanic Verses, whatever thing and then they but then we got the explicit warning.

Jamie: 15:48

I think that's my point. Is that like, I had to go through this selection process. And then I had to mail it in

Guy: 15:54

which which about a lot of thinking about weighing your options. Because the sticker board was like 150 choices. And they're all like the size of your thumbnail.

Jamie: 16:06

And then I had to wait weeks for it to arrive. So when it arrived, I was just overjoyed. anticipation. And then my dad made me get rid of that. Luckily, my friend had a double cassette boombox, so I recorded mixtape and I put love song on there, and then I was fine, you know, but so anyway

Guy: 16:28

From the radio?

Jamie: 16:30

No, I actually think I did it.

Guy: 16:32

Okay, I we would record from the radio, which was so frustrating.

Jamie: 16:35

We would record from the radio too. Thanks, 91x. In San Diego, every New Year's Eve, they played like 100 songs. And we would like make these mixtapes every New Year's Eve until I was like, 16.

Guy: 16:44

The best was when the song would go back to back and the DJ wouldn't talk over. Cuz you do beep recording, and then they talk over it. And you're like, I don't want that on their mixtape, yes, but this is a way to get free music because it's a

Jamie: 16:55

This was a real thing. And it was a real joy. And it took hours. It just took hours, you know? So, but my point is, then our kids, I think the reason why this whole like I'm the center of the universe gets created by the phone is like, every they don't, they don't know how to wait. Everything is like, I want the song push. Oh, I want to I want I mean,

Guy: 17:16

So is it a matter of patience? Because you say, well, just you just need patience. But it feels harder wired than that. It's not just a lack of patience. It's like wrapped up at patience. entitlement. Yeah, expectation is definitely. And it's not even. I think, from our perspective, we can say, you know, they they have false expectation, or they have entitlement in the bad way or, or they don't have patience.

Jamie: 17:39

Well, I don't even think we can fault them that much because they don't know any different, right? Their life has been immediate. I mean, like, the teenagers now will never know life without doordash. I mean, if you even don't want to get in your car to go get your food, someone will bring your McDonald's to you. I mean, this is bad, right, like this is. So I just think we've gotten to this place where

Guy: 18:03

Well think of anything that you would want to know like in in. I mean, this is my elementary school all the way up until almost time through high school. If you needed to study something, you went to the library, or you maybe your family had that encyclopedia set. Which was a very narrow view, right? It's, it's if one person wrote Wikipedia. And that was it. So you say, Oh, well, I guess this is I got...

Jamie: 18:32

And it was for like 12 years, you had that same set of encyclopedias.

Guy: 18:34

Right. They weren't updated. So you were looking at, you know, if I want to learn about cars, it was from the 1950s. Or you had magazines in the stores, there was no internet.

Jamie: 18:45

And I think that's what helps make them the center of the universe is that the phone or the web or whatever, caters to all their wishes and demands all at their fingertips, whatever they want, then they can access where we we just didn't have that as kids. So I think

Guy: 19:02

What are the risks of that?

Jamie: 19:03

That's what I think is dangerous is is then all of a sudden you go into your adult life, and you have a job. And your boss is not all about you sometimes or big world. And I think sometimes I find myself trying to give my child intentional experiences. Like I'll take my daughter, there's a an organization close to our home that it's called interfaith. Yeah. And they serve lunch and dinner, no, breakfast and dinner, to veterans, homeless veterans, and that that little organization has become a favorite place of ours because we'll do sack lunches for them or we've gone and help serve breakfast or we've and giving my child those experiences. What I hope for her is that she starts to see that the world is bigger than her.

Guy: 19:55

It gives her a chance to take off her glasses. And put on someone else's and put her phone Down. And see life through a different lens. And that that can be eye opening.

Jamie: 20:05

Yeah. And that's the harm in not taking the phone away sometimes or not. You know, when Amy was on the show, the biggest takeaway that so many of our listeners have told me that they took from that episode was the bedtime. The phone. They're like that night, we started having a bedtime for our phone and shout out to my husband, who we've had many discussions about his phone. He puts his phone to bed at nine o'clock in our office. It's not in our room anymore. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, Amy Adams. There's a small statue of you in our room.

Guy: 20:39

thank you, Amy.

Jamie: 20:41

So I mean, I just think we have to learn even as adults, right? Like, what kind of control this has in our lives.

Guy: 20:46

Yeah, and there's self control aspect to that. I don't think we are gonna say you have to get rid of the phones. They're here. There. The technology is here to stay. And you're moving forward. You have to learn how to work with it. And then like you done, keep those perspectives. So that it's there's more there than just the phone.

Jamie: 21:07

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's the thing is that teaching your child they're actually not the center of the universe.

Guy: 21:16

Yeah, right. Cuz his parents, right? This can escalate to the point where they don't respect your authority either.

Jamie: 21:23

Right. And when I know better, and what's fascinating is when

Guy: 21:26

we're sharing all these fuddy duddy stories of how we don't relate. And that kind of dismisses us from their sphere.

Jamie: 21:33

right. But by taking her to interfaith or whatever you expose your child to, to show them that the world is bigger than they are. I think what it does is expose them to the fact that everyone has worth everyone has value, everyone, rather than it's just about me, and how many likes I have, or me and how many followers I have, or whatever, that is.

Guy: 21:54

Or if I feel like answering the phone or feel like responding, Or feel like doing something right there. Think from outside, right? Not inside.

Jamie: 22:03

I mean, it's I think that's what's even hard on the podcast, marketing the podcast and asking for people to review us and to like it, so that we can have a better, you know, impact on the impact, right? And part of me is like, why can't it just be organic, like, just if you like it great. And I feel confident about what we're putting out there. So it will just organically grow into something wonderful. But we get impatient. And we I mean, I feel that in myself, like, oh, how do we make this maximize this opportunity? And I think we don't need to it's going to good things will grow and and become what it needs to be. And but we have to go back to I'm gonna wait the six weeks for my cassettes to come.

Guy: 22:44

I'm gonna be patient. And have confidence in my choices.

Jamie: 22:47

And be okay with it. be okay with it. Yeah. So I that's kind of where I think we can help our kids.

Guy: 22:53

So what's our second lie? Our first lie, just for those keeping score was I'm the center of my own universe.

Jamie: 22:59

The lie number two, I deserve to be happy all the time, which I think is funny, because as a therapist, I think people are distressed at the first sign of depression or anxiety or anything like that. And it's actually quite normal that our feelings and emotions fluctuate. You know,

Guy: 23:17

I think the key word in that is I deserve, Right? Because I mean, my optimist is like, well, I want to be happy all the time. Well, this is a bad pursuit. I mean,

Jamie: 23:27

Think about your kids playing video games. It's like, it's fun. But if they don't get the highest score, then what? I have to keep playing until I beat my highest score or their score. I mean, I can't I can't be satisfied with like, Oh, I just played for an hour. Yeah. It's, I mean, how many of you have seen your kids throw their controllers? Maybe as many times as we saw our dads, you know, throw the remote when they came out, you know, like, my work, whatever that is, because we get that impatient. And we think we deserve to have the highest score, or I should have this figured out. And and I think we see our kids learn that they should be able to do that immediately, especially with gaming and

Guy: 24:14

right, well, and, and their devices are feeding them that. It's, it's not just you play the game, and it was fun. You play the game, and then you played another game, you play the game and you got a new console you got. I mean, I think that, you know, you can take your kid to Disneyland. And the next day, they're like, where we're going next. And for me, like, the first time I went to Disneyland that was like, Okay, well, that's like 10 years now. Like, that's gonna hold us over. Like, that was amazing. So there's this escalation of what's that word satiation like you're not satisfied?

Jamie: 24:50

Well, and I think sometimes we don't want things to be hard. And if they're hard, we equate that with unhappy. And I think about I think I share This earlier maybe not stop me if I've shared the story. Mackenzie was in swimming lessons. She was like four years old. And we're doing waterworks here in San Diego. Great, great place. And we had the best teacher for a long time. His name is Mr. Scott. Shout out to Mr. Scott. He's a good family friend that he and his wife are school teachers in Hawaii. And anyway, he was fantastic and so good with Mackenzie Mackenzie just loved going and she's a fish. So I knew I needed to get her, you know, good instruction. And he informed us that he was going to college and he was going away. And so he was no longer going to be teaching. And they said, well, who do you recommend? And he recommended this other guy there. And I had seen him and he, you know, when we were there for lessons and so, and Mr. Scott was telling me, he's the best, he's good. So I made the change. And I put McKenzie in this other man's class. And they're small classes. They're those like a max of three kids in these classes. And so, but this new teacher was not as warm and fuzzy as Mr. Scott, Mr. Scott's very playful. He's funny, and he's really, you can tell he's really good with kids. And clearly he is because he went into elementary education. he's a he's a teacher. And but this other guy, he's, he's big guy. He had a deep voice and he was not warm and fuzzy. And but he was a good swim instructor. And about four or five days in to other moms on the bench with me start like, whisper, whisper, whisper, you know, like, I think I'm gonna move my child like, I just don't like, we're done here. Yeah, like, he's mean and, and he's really stern. And you know, and one time my daughter like, go off the wall. She's messing around, and he got really after her and what she should have. I mean, that the the water Baldwin, if you don't know how to swim in it. And so I noticed that mom started transferring their kids to another teacher. And this one lady's like, are you gonna leave her in this class? And I was like, Yeah. Because it's okay, that it's hard that he's not as easy. And Mr. Scott wasn't easy. He was easy going. He was it was his temperament was, you know, really suited to four year olds. And this other teacher, he wasn't like, playful like the other one. But he was a fantastic swim instructor. And that's what I was paying for. And my daughter to this day is a wonderful swimmer. But I remember sitting there and kind of having this dilemma, like, I was feeling bad, like, Am I being a mean mom, like, by not moving her into a different class? And I remember laying in bed kind of lamenting over this with my husband, and he's like, no, and I'm like, yeah, cuz she's gonna have hard teachers. She's gonna have professors that maybe she doesn't like, or that they don't like her and, and she's gonna have to learn how to follow the requirements.

Guy: 27:47

Yeah, you were you were giving her long term experience right over short term comfort,

Jamie: 27:52

right.

Guy: 27:52

Maybe if you'd asked her she'd like, I don't like this teacher. I like Mr. Scott. Yeah. But that experience taught her that, hey, I'm learning to swim. And there's different. There's different ways.

Jamie: 28:03

And she's not focused on the teacher. She's focused on what we're there to do. Yeah. And I think that we do our kids a disservice. Sometimes when we're like, oh, this is uncomfortable for you. Let's make it comfortable. Sometimes discomfort is where the growth is, right? And so sometimes with the phone, it's, everything should be easy. Every you know,

Guy: 28:24

what's all it's all happy. Look at Instagram or any of your feeds. Right? It's all the best part of life. So then there gets to be a perception that I only need the best part of life

Jamie: 28:35

like Pinterest. Like, I always laugh with that show on Netflix, where it's like, oh, nailed it. I need to like, I have tried. I don't do that anymore. But I've tried so many things where I'm like, Yeah, no.

Guy: 28:50

Did not nail it.

Jamie: 28:51

Yeah, I mean, it is just like, I mean, no, but I think it's because their fails, right? Isn't nailed that the one where they like, try it, and it totally failed.

Guy: 28:59

Well, and that's so imagine if that pressure to only make beautiful desserts, right? Is there right? You'll either stop making desserts. Or, or you're going to be so stressed out making the desserts that you know, you're not gonna it's not gonna be fun.

Jamie: 29:12

I think this whole let's, I deserve to be happy all the time. It's like, an I don't need to post at the desert I'm making. It might taste fantastic and not look very pretty. And who cares? You know, and I think it's teaching our kids that happiness isn't based on what others think of you. It's what do you think of yourself? And sometimes getting through that discomfort? Like if my daughter there, this happened several times in seventh grade where she would get in the car, and she would start crying. Yeah, so and so said something about my hair. And I was like, okay, that probably hurt. And she'd be crying and I'm like, What do you think of your hair? I like my hair. I'd like my haircut I'm like, then that's all that really, you know, like you like your hair. So, like your hair right? or whatever or you'd like those pants, then wear those pants. But this So like, I have to be happy all the time because things are easy. And things turn out all the time. I think we do our kids a disservice.

Guy: 30:07

when you work in, in, in mental health, right? You know that that's not the case. That's not the reality.

Jamie: 30:12

Even the people you think are happy all the time have a bad day every once in a while, right? Even Guy The Optimist has a bad day once in a while.

Guy: 30:19

I could be faking it right now. Right? I want to read this because I think this is a great line from Dr. Kathy. I hope she's okay calling her that I

Jamie: 30:29

We'll hear from her. Right.

Guy: 30:31

This is kind of speaking to the parents and and even to the, you know, kids that may be having this problem. We must prioritize joy over happiness, contentment over entitlement and effort over laziness or comfort. And I think that is huge, right? Those are kind of the antidotes to those if you're like, well, happiness seems temporary. Joy feels like something in your heart.

Jamie: 30:58

And it's okay to let your kids have consequences. Natural, like when parents come in, and they're like, "we're" failing biology. I'm like, are you? Are you back in high school? Like, the mom is talking to me.

Guy: 31:11

She's so wrapped into it.

Jamie: 31:12

She's so wrapped into the success or happiness of her child. And I'm like, No, your child's failing biology. And by failing biology, that child can figure out, what do I want? What do I want my grades to reflect? What do I want to put into study? And so I think we have to sometimes the natural consequence of failing, which I hate that word, call it failing, like,

Guy: 31:33

we don't want them to fail.

Jamie: 31:35

No, but allow them to fail. So they can gain experience

Guy: 31:41

Right. For example, the other day, my one daughter, she really wanted to go to this restaurant. And it's been closed for a while. And so I said, you know, let's go, let's go. But you have to call to see if they're open. Dun, dun, dun. Oh, no, like, we won't go that So I kind of worked with there as like, you call him a phone. I even intentionally didn't got the landline phone at the cell phone. And here's the phone number, you need to call them and ask if they're open. And finally, she got the nerve to do it. But I was like, what's the worst that can happen? I was like, showing up Who cares? Right? We did that intensely growing up, like, you know, prank-calling, people, and then she did it. And the look on her face after I mean, she probably said like four or five words like are you open? Okay, thank you. And I, I prompt her like, do they have outdoor dining? So she asked that question, just got off the phone. But the biggest smile on her face? Like she was uncomfortable. She could have failed. She didn't know what was gonna happen on the other end of that phone line. She had to talk to a person. And it worked out.

Jamie: 32:46

And then next time, it won't be as hard.

Guy: 32:48

Right, right. There's a sense of accomplishment. The other thing I'm thinking about here too, that contentment, I mean, think of as as parents, right? We want our kids to be happy we get sucked into this trap. Also, it's not just our kids are doing this. And what do we do about it? It's Well, our kids doing this and that we're accommodating that behavior. I think it's like a birthday party. I mean, there's been some crazy birthday parties in this neighborhood.

Jamie: 33:11

Yeah. And I actually threw a couple of really big ones.

Guy: 33:14

Guilty, right?

Jamie: 33:15

Yeah, guilty.

Guy: 33:15

You can't see it used to be okay. Barker dazed by growing up. We live in a neighborhood called parties. parties. birthday party consisted of cake some napkins playing the backyard. Some bubbles, maybe. You had some presents. But nothing major. And here you have the birthday day, first of all right. And it starts with a breakfast again. Yeah, or weekend. And then the birthday party may consist of a bouncy house, and you know, some kind of entertainment and something for the parents to do. And food and catering. And oh, yeah. Like, what what do we this isn't contentment, right? There's entitlement. And then there's intelligence. And there's all these things, compensating for it.

Jamie: 33:59

And sometimes I think, did that start because people started posting big. So then you'd get these ideas, but then you'd post Oh, like, I know. And pretty soon I was like,

Guy: 34:09

Yeah, I don't update.

Jamie: 34:10

Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, I don't do back to school feast. Back to School. We're like ordering pizza. I mean, it's just kind of like, I don't want to feel that pressure in order to be validated as a mom. And so imagine what these kids feel right? Like, in order for me to be happy all the time. This is what my life needs to look like. Or I need these shoes, or I need you know, whatever it is.

Guy: 34:33

Yeah, we're feeding we're feeding the misconception. Lie Number three. I must have choices. Again, they're the keyword must

Jamie: 34:43

like the drop down menu.

Guy: 34:45

The drop down menus, what part of life now doesn't have a drop down menu.

Jamie: 34:48

And when it doesn't, you're like, this is the worst website.

Guy: 34:54

I'm totally I mean, I'm guilty. I love choice. Yeah, I love variety. So and, and in My coaching. I coach people on you know, making choice, you know, choosing. So I have a hard time say, well, you shouldn't have choice and I don't think it's not about having choices. It's about expecting choices. Yeah, think of dinnertime. I mean, I maybe I didn't I guess breakfast My mom used to always say this Gramps like, I'm not a short order cook. Yeah. And I don't know. Does that even resonate with anyone that a short order cook is when it's like at a diner diner, and they just make whatever you ask for. Yeah. And she was not having any of that. But I'm guilty of it. Like my one kid. I'll have a waffle for breakfast. My other one I have a bowl of cereal. I'll cut up some fruit for the other one. What if I just make waffles and leave them there? They probably get eaten. And they probably say that was a good breakfast thing. Yeah.

Jamie: 35:45

Yeah. But this idea that we have to have choices. Like I must extract them. Yeah. Then it's like,

Guy: 35:53

I can customize anything.

Jamie: 35:54

Yeah. Like I'll say, oh, why don't we watch a movie? Well, what movie what movie? And I'll say I want to watch dah dah dah. Oh, why don't we watch this? And then they'll spend 20 minutes going through all these movies. And I've gone upstairs. I've lost interest now.

Guy: 36:09

Lost the connection. You disconnected because too much choice.

Jamie: 36:13

Too much choice. I always joke about that. When I go to the grocery store. This is too much choice. Like you go down the cereal aisle. I need a Xanax. Like, I don't know, like, I'll just get the cheapest one. Right? Like, I just don't know. It's, it's it creates anxiety sometimes to have so much choice.

Guy: 36:27

Exactly.

Jamie: 36:28

And so people say to me a lot anxiety. Is it because we're more aware of it? Or or Do people really have more anxiety than they used to? And I'm like, I think it's because we have way more choice than we've ever had. And so I have this darling roommate from college, and she's a dear friend of mine. And I tease her because when we go out to dinner, it should be like, what are you gonna get? And we could be in a big group, what are you gonna get? And she's getting everyone's ID and she's like, Oh, I don't know what to get. And she would friend, friend, friend. And then we would all order. And then she would order. And then when everyone's food came spec, I said, I got that. Right, it would create so much anks for her.

Guy: 37:08

It's first paralyzer. Right? You don't know which one to pick. Yeah. And then you second guess your choice, Because there were so many did I pick the right one? And then when you get it, the variety says you didn't pick the right one, because there's more choices that you didn't explore.

Jamie: 37:21

Yeah. And it was so funny. I always tease her my and hers was probably fantastic. She probably liked it. But she would always compare it. And I think and those are small choices. And now our kids have a gazillion more choices than we were ever faced with. So I think that that that idea that they must have choices, then when you think you're the center of the universe, then you think your choices, right? Like my daughter's like, well, this is the movie we should watch. And I'm like, Oh, well. I don't want to watch that movie.

Guy: 37:51

Yeah. And it can be kind of shattering when someone says no, that's not the right choice. Well, but I'm the center of my universe. And I made this choice. And now you're kind of breaking that. And how do I cope with that?

Jamie: 38:04

And I think what we have to do is teach our kids the power of making decisions, right? Like, well, if you do this, then this is how this is going to play out. If you choose this, then maybe we don't do this, or whatever that looks like.

Guy: 38:17

Yeah, the companion to choices consequences. Yeah. And not in a bad sense. I feel like there's negativity towards consequence. But there's good consequences. It's getting. I don't think we accused kids of not being adept at making choices. Yeah. But understanding the consequences from those choices. Yeah. And being okay. With less choice sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think back to your Columbia house example, right. Even though we thought that was amazing. You can have 150, you could pick from Yeah, it was only 150. Think of how many albums our kids can pick from now on?

Jamie: 38:50

Well, it was funny. I had this sweet client the other day, say, Oh, I spent an hour like I set aside an hour. So I could go through the podcast and find podcasts that I wanted to listen to. And I was like, isn't that funny? Like in an hour? You have barely scratching the surface of what's available? So I mean, we can do that with music. We can do that with media, we can do that with podcasts. We can do that on audibles. I mean, we can spend hours just trying to narrow down our choice, right. And so I think with kids, it's it's okay as parents to kind of present fewer options and to limit choices and teach them more about the decision making process. And what is it that you value? What's your intention? What do you want out of this choice?

Guy: 39:31

Yeah, a good concrete example for me in our business, right when we launched one of our product lines for the kitchen. We launched I think in 12 colors, Aaron, it was a lot of colors. Yeah, but we thought oh my gosh, this is so amazing. It's pretty it's the full rainbow of colors. And and we did it and over the years as we've whittled that down to four colors, sales have gone up.

Jamie: 39:56

Interesting.

Guy: 39:57

Because there's proven studies like, if you're on Amazon, and you have two colors to pick from an item that you're buying, you can use to make that choice. If you expand that out to like six or eight, you might come back like you might postpone the decision because you don't know for sure. And then that might ultimately cause you not to buy it. So I mean, that's, that's one of those tangible things, right? If there's so much choice, that paralysis causes that anxiety. Which then just snowballs into other bad behaviors?

Jamie: 40:28

Yeah, no, I think you're right. So let your kids you know, get that benefit of learning how to make decisions and understand the power of their choice.

Guy: 40:38

So lie number four, then is I am my own authority. What's that say to you?

Jamie: 40:43

Well, I think that's kind of thing. Everyone's the expert now. Right? Like, well, the government's failed me. My teachers have failed me or whatever. And I know, right, like, and we start to feel like I am the expert. So and, and for some people it has worked like when we were watching fake, famous, right. I mean, how many people became famous makeup artists, because they're good at it. And they just started a YouTube channel. And all of a sudden, every middle school girl in America is following them because they're the resident expert. Well, I mean, they aren't certified cosmetologist, they don't have training, but they found something they're good at. And they've marketed themselves as the expert. Right?

Guy: 41:24

Well, there was there was those girls in our school, right High School grown up, right that did a certain hairstyle. Next week, three of the girls had the same hairstyle, right? Letterman's jacket, one guy on the sports who got the Letterman's jacket, we all got Letterman's jacket, you know I cut the roof off their mini truck, we all had to cut through suffer mini Trek.

Jamie: 41:40

Well, it's funny. I have a cousin who passed away this last week. And so I've been on the phone with family a lot this week. And my brother is doing like the video and pictures and everything. And he was he was a very old, and he was a really fun guy. And when I was talking to my sister, my other cousin, we were talking about how he was YouTube before YouTube was ever invented. I mean, he and his buddies were always orchestrating, like pranks and things and videoing everything and

Guy: 42:09

early adopters.

Jamie: 42:10

Yeah, like I always joke He always was like the Ferris Bueller before Ferris Bueller, even, you know, just always behind the antics. And had he been a teenager now, he'd probably be making a lot of money on youtube, because he just was he was that kind of kid. And now these kids all have a platform to be experts to be experts. Yes, when and so then I think what happens is we invalidate some of the experts that are out there, whether it's a government official, or a teacher or a parent, you know, my daughter was watching a show one time, I won't name the channel, but I came down and I was like, I don't like this show that you're watching. And she's like, why am I because it makes the parents look like idiots. And the way the kids are talking to the parents, and she's like, well, it's funny. I'm like, it's not. And I made her turn it off. And I was just like, when you watch that, and I noticed, too, when she would watch that stuff, she would be more sassy. Or she would be more outspoken, right?

Guy: 43:09

Because their minds are still developing. Yeah, they're looking for an example. They're looking for a role model. They're looking for ways to do it.

Jamie: 43:16

I'm like, teenagers already think their parents are brain dead. I don't really need this popular kids channel illustrating how dumb parents are, like I just didn't appreciate it as as a parent.

Guy: 43:27

So the problem with that the phone, if that was one example, the phone delivers 1000s of those examples.

Jamie: 43:33

Well, there's like no authority figure in any of these shows. Right? The kids are the authority figure. So you go back to even like I we were watching COVID confessions, we were watching Hannah Montana together. And I remember thinking like, This girl is running the show and running the family. And dad is doing what she wants. Right. And there's no like authority figure.

Guy: 43:56

The analogy of the Hannah Montana authority figure.

Jamie: 44:00

Right? Because I think a lot of times what our kids are watching on their phones, there's just no authority figure. So that that makes them

Guy: 44:09

well. And also, if you say, you know, My son, Jake, what's going on the Mars Rover? In a couple of minutes, he can bring up all of that information. So now he's an expert on the Mars Rover, right in our family, at least. And each one can do that, like you can give any topic. And very quickly, the kid can come up with expert material to tell you and it didn't come from their parents, or from their teachers.

Jamie: 44:34

And I think to the other part is, then when dad comes in and says it's time to put the phone away. Well, I'm just I'm studying. I'm studying science. I'm studying, you know, like, yeah, and all of a sudden, you don't have any authority because this is smarter than what you're telling, right? And you're actually wanting to give his brain a break from all that information, which is why he needs and so sometimes it's just too much and so I feel like when they become the authority on everything that can be a tough, that's a tough place to be in. I think the other thing we have to address on kids being that their own authority is recognizing why it's important for them to recognize that they're not. And that's the boundary issue. Like, if you get pulled over by a police officer...

Guy: 45:18

There it is. I've been waiting for boundaries. Tell me more about boundaries and authority.

Jamie: 45:22

Well, if you think about, you get pulled over and a 16 year olds, like, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about?

Guy: 45:29

Yeah, you see stuff like that on TV. And, for me, I don't even understand the mentality of how you're arguing with a police officer. And I understand that there's a lot of social, you know, dialogue here. But there was authority. And that teacher, whether it was, I mean, we we gave respect to the custodian at our school, because they were an adult,

Jamie: 45:52

right. And that's what's lacking. Because it's gotten so lackadaisical because kids are the expert, right? Or they're the authority on whatever they know. And, and so that comes out.

Guy: 46:03

If I have me and my phone, I know everything.

Jamie: 46:05

Right. And I think teaching that boundary is really important issue on this on this particular line.

Guy: 46:11

I think that leads into the last one. Number five, which is information is all I need. So I don't need teachers. So if we've already decided on my own authority,

Jamie: 46:21

and during COVID Oh, my gosh, this has been tough, right? Because our kids are all doing online school. So they're like, We don't even need the teacher that much.

Guy: 46:32

It's tough. So I'm just gonna read this. This is a good excerpt from Dr. Kathy again here. Not only do children think they don't need us, because they are their own authority. But they also may dismiss us because they think information is all they need. And they can get that on their own now.

Jamie: 46:50

Yeah, right. And again, I always go back to connection, you have to be connecting with your kids. And I like it. Because Dr. Kathy talks about this, as parents, as you get vulnerable, in your own and honest with your own issues with these lies, and talk to your kids about it, they'll be much more open to that feedback and listening and understanding because you're trying to set those boundaries for yourself, right, then they're not going to be like you don't know. And all my friends, you know, I mean, they'll say that. But every night at nine o'clock, my daughter's phone is in the office, and she she doesn't fight it, because it's just an expectation. And so she does it, you know, and there have been exceptions, right? When we've been on vacation or whatever. But for the most part, that phone goes to bed at night. And so does she

Guy: 47:38

Yeah, I think this would make a great, you know, just in general, these five lines would make a great dinner conversation with your kids. I'm playing with my kids. Just even to get their reaction. Say, do you believe this? Do you feel that? And and it may be super subtle. And by kind of talking it out, they realize there are some behaviors and habits and things we've gotten into and the vulnerability as a parent to say, I'm guilty of this.

Jamie: 48:04

Yes. And I think that's important, because that's how we were when we watch social dilemma. And even when we've been doing the Screen Ed from Amy Adams. Yeah. When we've been working in that. I'm always like, I haven't I struggle with that I have to put a timer on my phone for that, or, you know, whatever it looks like. And so when we admit our own guilt, rather than like I've mastered this, I haven't. I mean, the iPhone came into my life when I was in my 30s. You know, and so I can't imagine trying to navigate this at 13.

Guy: 48:34

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that, I mean, for the listeners that want to learn more of what Dr. Kathy Koch is putting out there in her celebrate kids platform. She has a lot more material. And one of them is how kids born after these technology revolutions. They're wired differently. Their brains are different. And so it isn't just like a generation gap. It's a thinking. It's a different way of thinking.

Jamie: 48:59

And it goes back to the fact that with my age in regard to parenting, I haven't you know, my mom can say I've been through what you've been through. I haven't been through what my daughter's going through. I didn't have a cell phone when I was in high school. I didn't have access to what my friends were doing without me.

Guy: 49:18

That window into everyone's lives that didn't exist. We were just left to watch reruns with our siblings.

Jamie: 49:24

Right. I didn't I didn't have to compare my eyebrows to Kim Kardashian. Like I just I didn't have to do that.

Guy: 49:30

Or 3000 other Kim Kardashians. Yeah. It's, it's the information is so accessible. And it is it's real information.

Jamie: 49:40

And I'm laughing because if you look at high school pictures in the 80s, we didn't even look at our eyebrows. I was like, when did we start paying attention to our eyebrows? Anyway, a little side note.

Guy: 49:55

Erin wishes I started painting earlier, probably about five years ago.

Jamie: 50:01

Manscaping

Guy: 50:02

Grandpa eyebrows are real thing. Anyway, I think the the closing note on this, which is interesting, you know, information is all I need. And it almost seems like it stops there. Like knowledge isn't as valuable as just the information now. So if I have information, that's all I need, I don't need to actually internalize it or learn it know it.

Jamie: 50:23

I just to pass the test. I just need to get a whatever on the ACT. I mean, it's not about learning.

Guy: 50:31

Right. And that's what generationally in the past. You would go to your elders for knowledge, right. They were, they had the wisdom. And I mean, even our generation, right, that mentoring and thing. And I remember when I worked at Boeing, we were, you know, trying to recruit younger employees. And there was times when, like that they didn't see the value in in the older employees, right? Well, yeah, dead weight. Why are we here? Wait, wait, they help build this company. There's like, immense value there. It's just you know, they're all interchangeable. So there's that dismissiveness that can if left unchecked, it becomes pretty hard to tell a kid anything.

Jamie: 51:16

Yeah. And you can see that at now as we go into this generation of new working people, right. Like it's this in the last 20 years. It's hard to find someone who worked at the same place for 30 years. Like it's just ever

Guy: 51:29

Remember that when we first started? You needed to pick a lifelong career. What stress.

Jamie: 51:33

Yeah. And the people that hired me. They're like, Oh, I've been here for 40 years, right? And now, it's like in two or three years, you're on a job. And they're like, So what's next? And that's that drop menu, right?

Guy: 51:45

I was just on a call the other day, a zoom call. And we've been doing our company for 10 years, and someone was on there lamenting because it had been six years and someone else like I've been doing my job for eight years. It's way too long. I really, it's past due, I need to find a new career. Yeah. The shelf life is gone.

Jamie: 52:04

Yeah. And and to me, that says something about contentment. Like, we've lost that. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, lots to think about.

Guy: 52:13

Yeah, very good. So Dr. Kathy Koch, spelled Koch. We'll put in the show notes. If you want to link to her materials, her website, I chose a couple of books out there that are really good. And YouTube videos that explain some of her principles in more depth. So very good. Well, I enjoy talking to you. As always, thanks for joining me here on the Davenport.

Jamie: 52:35

Have a great week.

Guy: 52:36

And before we go, be sure to like follow up, subscribe, all the good things, you don't get rid of your devices because you got to go out and follow the debit card. But we hope you enjoy the show. And if you do, please leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. And if you have ideas for future topics, please reach out to us either on social media or in email. And we'd love to consider those for future shows. Thanks again, Jamie.

Jamie: 53:04

All right. See you next week.

Guy: 53:09

Thanks so much for listening this week. Stay connected by following us on Instagram or Facebook app, the Davenport podcast. For more information on coaching services with guy visit his website, TheCoachGuy.net. For additional information regarding counseling services, the daring way curriculum, or relationship counseling, please go to JamiePyattLCSW.com.

Jamie: 53:36

The Davenport podcast is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. Although Jamie is a licensed clinical social worker and guide as a professional life coach. The information and opinions shared by the hosts and their guests are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. The information on this show does not create a client therapist or coaching relationship and should not be taken as professional advice or guidance. Please consult with your physician or qualified health care provider regarding any medical or mental health conditions.