A Discussion About Addiction w/ Dr. Aaron Cannon

Aaron: Please Note: 0:01

*** This transcription was done through computer software, so there could be errors throughout the text. *** Welcome back to the Davenport. Hi Jamie. How you doing this week?

Jamie: 1:20

Good. How are you?

Guy: 1:21

I'm doing good. I just got back from a test drive on the Bronco.

Jamie: 1:27

night in the desert lately. It's been like two years coming.

Guy: 1:31

Yeah, the long and short of it was that it was amazing drive and loved it. And the guys like oh, we don't know when they're gonna deliver the two doors. So you're on the wait list just on the waitlist, as long as they keep giving me more test drives to go on. I think that'd be that's okay.

Jamie: 1:47

For us. It was the last day of finals for the high school. So I have a very happy teenager that has a three week Christmas break. But she's getting her wisdom teeth out on Monday. So

Guy: 1:59

we'll see I got you lations. Right.

Jamie: 2:01

I'm like, I guess I should go stock up on jello. And Sue

Guy: 2:05

says party weekend and then yeah, Mumps next week. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: 2:09

So anyway, I said the hay, it's perfect. You can just lay on the couch and watch Christmas movies.

Guy: 2:15

I don't even need to get the wisdom teeth out. But it does feel like it's getting close. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Well, we today we have a special guest. Yes, I repeat.

Jamie: 2:28

Yes. Because everyone loved him the first time.

Aaron: 2:31

Yes. That's good to hear.

Guy: 2:33

He loved hanging out on the Devonport so much. He's back. Before we get into that, let's do just a couple reminders. So please, if you'd like the show, share it with your friends and family, get the word out and leave a review and hit that subscribe button. Because that allows you to auto download each episode. And we do new episodes every week on Tuesday. So with that, Jamie, do you want to give us a little intro for those that maybe didn't hit the last episode?

Jamie: 3:01

Back with us is Dr. Aaron cannon. And he and I worked together many years ago, only on Friday. He only came on Fridays. It was my favorite day. And I was at the time I Yeah, cuz it was before I had my daughter even as I was full time down there. And you worked for tents. I did prison and it's with us on Fridays. It's great. I learned so much just in our conversations. It was the best day. So it was fun. Yeah. And then when the state wouldn't let you do that, or the feds, I don't know who it was. No, it was the state. It was the state where we were so disappointed. I was like, just wasn't as fun. I learned a lot. And I'm grateful that you've let me stay in touch with you.

Aaron: 3:44

Oh, vice versa. Yes, absolutely. It's good. And ever

Jamie: 3:47

since your last episode, people have been like, you need to have him back on. I'm like, Oh, we're planning that is

Aaron: 3:52

good to hear. You never know you leave and people ask how did it go? Oh, I think that went well. Yeah, but you don't know that?

Jamie: 3:57

Yeah, it did. And I've had Fievel. In fact, I go walking with my friend little shout out to Tara. And she she's like I sent that episode to so many people. So I was like, Oh, good. So it's good.

Guy: 4:09

Yeah, definitely in great insight into a world that maybe a lot of us are exposed to. Yeah.

Jamie: 4:14

And so which is why we thought it would be perfect for today's topic.

Aaron: 4:17

Well, thank goodness. Right. These are Yeah, we don't want to know that. That's what I say. No, no, you don't want to know. So that's

Jamie: 4:24

where he works is the prison. I do. And you've been there for 15

Aaron: 4:29

for 15 years. Yeah, it feels more like four minutes. Well,

Jamie: 4:33

that water that means you're probably there's that you're loving meaning. It's like I said, love it. Well, it's meaningful. It's meaningful work.

Guy: 4:43

Or it goes quickly.

Aaron: 4:45

Yep, all those things can be true.

Guy: 4:47

Yeah, it's exhilarating enough. You don't even feel like you're winning.

Aaron: 4:51

I never don't have the best stories. I will say that. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: 4:55

I mean, we'd like talk for an hour every time we we get together just before we get to talk Epic because you have so many great stories. Yeah.

Guy: 5:03

It does feel like storytime. Like, tell me more about this. Yeah,

Jamie: 5:08

I actually have a family member who spent some time in prison. And when he got out, I have a brother who's very curious. And he was like sitting around asking all these questions that all of us were to even things like, Well, what was your favorite meal? What did you like to eat?

Aaron: 5:25

You know, I, we run, we do groups, we run groups, we have, you know, group therapy as part of the Mental Health Program. And if you're ever sort of stuck for a topic, you can always ask that question. Yeah. What is your favorite meal? In the 40 years that you've been here? And that will carry on for weeks? They can talk about that forever? The food and how awful

Jamie: 5:44

it is? Yeah.

Guy: 5:46

So that's the topic today. What is your favorite? There, Aaron?

Aaron: 5:51

No. I mean, I bring my bring your own. Bring my own lunch. Yes. That's good. Yeah, we're like good mates. We're not allowed to leave. Yeah, we just kind of hunkered down and

Guy: 5:59

yeah. And hanging out in the cafeteria at lunchtime with

Aaron: 6:03

no, yeah. In your office? Oh, yes. In my office.

Jamie: 6:07

And I remember you saying you have guards outside your office. So we

Aaron: 6:11

do, and we don't, we have. So this is sort of the way that it's structured. My office, specifically, they took a gym, and they threw up a bunch of drywall and turn it into a bunch of offices. And so we have, I don't remember how many offices I want to say 18. And for group rooms, but the officers are all at the front, where you walk in. So if you're in office number nine, all the way in the back in the corner, and you hit that alarm because something's happening. It's going to take a hot minute for the cops to get to you. Yeah, absolutely.

Jamie: 6:43

I would be like, can I be an office number one?

Aaron: 6:47

With a window and the doors learned to not make them angry.

Jamie: 6:50

Yeah, well, yeah. Well, we thought for today's topic would be great to have you on because you see the results of addiction. We wanted to talk about addiction. And it's okay. Yeah, it's not that's not one of those warm and fuzzy topics.

Guy: 7:06

Super light hearted. Yeah,

Jamie: 7:08

it's really, you know, what's interesting about addiction is I get a lot of questions about addiction. If people wonder, is this an addiction, right? Because we only will well, in the past, we would associate drugs and alcohol, correct. That's addiction. Correct. But now, you know, I hear people talk about video game addictions, gambling, addiction, sex addiction, pornography, addiction, I mean, we we get into all these things. And so I know, a lot of times people will say, Do you believe that that could be an addiction? And I always say, I think anything that disrupts the quality of your life, right is correct. What can we can classify as an addiction? Absolutely. So I'm curious how you define it and kind of what your experiences as you've worked at the prison.

Aaron: 7:48

So it's interesting that you ask that question, because any discussion of addictions has to begin with, how do you define it? Let's make sure that we're talking about the same thing. And it's a word that we sort of throw around and use casually. And I think that it means something different to professionals than it does to the average individual. The same can be said for depression as well. I've been feeling depressed.

Jamie: 8:10

Well had. Everyone's an RC. Everyone's a

Aaron: 8:12

narcissist. Yeah, absolutely. When my favorite teams lose, and they lose way more often than they should. That makes me sad. But it doesn't make me depressed. There's no disturbance of sleep or appetite. I'm not isolating in all those that go along with that. So when we talk about addiction, the way that I, the way that I define addiction is continued to use. And so here's where you insert whatever, drugs, alcohol, sex, shopping, gambling, video games, it doesn't matter. Continued use despite adverse consequences. Sure. So you have to have both elements, something that you're continuing to do, despite the fact that it's, as you say, messing with your life,

Jamie: 8:49

like disrupting your marriage or keeping your marriage job.

Aaron: 8:52

So video games, one of the things that parents will often ask is or the oath that they'll just sort of say, No, my son or daughter is addicted to video games, and you have to stop them there. Well, how do you know that it's an addiction? Well, they play it all the time will tell me a little bit about their grades, or they have straight A's. Well, is it then really an addiction if they have time to manage straight A's? Yeah, I think that is probably not.

Guy: 9:13

Is that just a unfavorable habit? Or is it unfavorable unintentional activity,

Aaron: 9:21

or it's a coping skill? We talked about distraction techniques in terms of coping, as therapists? I think that to my generation, or to our generation, something like video games, we look at maybe a little bit distastefully, because we didn't grow up with them, and we don't understand them the

Jamie: 9:38

same way leaves limits like that screen time limit this

Aaron: 9:42

right, we have to limit the screen time, but that's not necessarily true of this generation, and especially with COVID. So is it interfering socially,

Guy: 9:53

all limits are often

Jamie: 9:58

a group of teenagers On Sunday at our church congregation, and for an exercise, I actually had them all pull out their phones. And I said, Okay, I want you to check your screentime for the week. And the girls are like, it was the adults that were like, I don't want to. And the adults didn't know how to but the girls like here, let me show you why. I wouldn't know how to. But it was interesting, because I just wanted them to look at, we were talking about where we put our time. And so I just wanted them to like have a real picture of like, where they're spending their time. Yes, digitally. Anyway, we use.

Aaron: 10:34

So I co teach one of our churches, youth groups every other week, basically, is how it works. And when my co facilitator as it were, when he teaches he takes the phones away, he puts them in a basket, but I do it very, very differently. You have the entire history of human learning at your fingertips. Why wouldn't you use that? Yeah. So I incorporate that because when they go home, it's coming right back out. Let's not pretend like it's staying down he baskets. Yeah. So why wouldn't you learn to use that appropriately? Yeah. I think that's how we have to approach

Jamie: 11:06

generation. It's where they read. It's where they where they get their information. That's where like, they don't answer their phones to talk on it.

Aaron: 11:13

They don't think they know how No, they just like, oh, yeah, you

Jamie: 11:16

don't call somebody you just text them.

Guy: 11:18

Yeah. You want to get a bunch of blank stares. Ask someone to call. I had a car full of teenagers. Yes. Can you call

Aaron: 11:24

them? No. Why would I do that? No, you don't know how they don't know how. It's not what this thing does? Yeah, no, they absolutely don't. I've seen it. I've watched. I've seen my kids answer the phone, they'll just swipe whatever way it is right or left and put the phone up to their heads. And then not say a word. You have to say hello, the person on the other end doesn't know, you know, this phone.

Jamie: 11:46

Line of interest. Yeah, they

Aaron: 11:47

just stare at it like that. Nobody can see because this is a pocket, right?

Jamie: 11:53

And so, you know, it's interesting, even with video game addiction, I see it in couples counseling, I'll have couples come in, where one spouse. And I hate to say this, but generally the woman is pretty disgruntled because her spouse is video gaming, right, you know, at from bedtime till early morning. And so the spouse wants a more, you know, like, I want us to have that time to connect and to be going to sleep together. But they leave. And so we have to work through is it an addiction or not?

Aaron: 12:27

Well, in that case, I would suggest that it probably meets the definition given that there's an adverse consequence.

Jamie: 12:32

Yeah, the marriage is unsatisfactory,

Aaron: 12:34

decreased social interactions. Yeah, that's the psychobabble nonsense that we would use.

Jamie: 12:38

But then you as the therapist, you're kind of unpacking the why. So why why all night long? Or why gaming? Or what, you know, I always am trying to get to what is it that feels good? What? What right. So

Aaron: 12:53

that's sort of the other part, I guess of not the definition, but the way that I view addiction, specifically, I think of it as a symptom of misery and misery might be overstating it, but definitely discomfort. And so we spend a lot of time targeting the addiction and talking about the addiction and all of our behavioral interventions are about the addiction, the screentime, and where's the computer, and you know, all those different types of things. But we rarely talk about and should probably talk more about, but why are you doing this? Yeah, what's the discomfort?

Jamie: 13:23

What are you? What's making you uncomfortable? But when you turn the TV on, you're like, oh, man, I don't need to think about that feeling.

Aaron: 13:31

Correct. I think that for a lot of people, there's, you know, this discomfort and they don't know how to manage it. And they will say, I don't feel good. But I know what will make me feel good. It's whatever it is now,

Jamie: 13:45

the addiction. And it doesn't start out. And I've had this conversation with some people who struggle with addiction, where they say do you believe like that sex can be an addiction or pornography can be an addiction? And I'm like, I actually think anything could become absolutely an addiction. There's no question, but I don't think it starts as an addiction. No, it's like the first drink doesn't make you the alcoholic you

Aaron: 14:09

know, you hear those stories. There's so few and far between. I don't I've never heard that story from an actual patient. Really? Where Yeah, the first time I did it I was all in or the first drink of it. Yeah, no, it's always as you say sort of this gradual

Jamie: 14:23

because oh, all of a sudden I try things Yeah. It's it was like, Oh, I didn't feel anxious. Oh, I didn't feel stress Correct. Oh, I I I didn't feel lonely all right. You know, whatever it was. So talking

Aaron: 14:38

about teenagers and marijuana specifically, we have in this in California. In California, it's legal right now honestly go. We know that we as parents put tons and tons and tons of pressure on our kids to succeed to achieve to overachieve. And that creates anxiety and an easy now legal Although not for them, way to cope cope to manage that anxiety is marijuana use

Jamie: 15:06

now or alcohol? I've actually seen it in the 20 years, I 20 years ago, I never saw marijuana outside of teenagers in my clients. Now it's mom's overwhelmed. Mom's going into the garage, you know, and they're not coping. So we're talking about how to how to deal with the coping and that being tired and, and always being needed without having to use a substance. Right. And and it's tough.

Aaron: 15:33

It is tough. And we as therapists talk a lot about addictions in a way that conveys this message that we don't think that they work. And I think that that's an accurate, I think the message should be that these things do work, drugs and alcohol do does make you feel better. Video games are soothing for these people. They work too well, yeah, actually is the issue. And they overwhelm other coping skills, they become the coping skill. And so it's our job as parents, as therapists, as friends, as families, whatever, to help them find better ways to manage that distress. But I think that part of that conversation needs to be this is going to be hard, it's probably going to be awful. But it won't always be awful or difficult, but it's going to start that way.

Guy: 16:15

What What about the, there's a mindset that says, the addiction or addictive nature of a thing is dangerous. And so if you get too close to it, or indulge too much, is that false? Is there is there? Does alcohol inherently have addictive property properties to it? Or is it a person?

Aaron: 16:38

Are we still using our definition? Yeah, of addiction,

Guy: 16:42

or based on based on your definition of earlier?

Aaron: 16:44

I think it's an overtime type of thing. Again, I don't I don't think that I've ever met the person who was addicted, quote, unquote, after one drink when use one hit, I'm sure that they exist. But I haven't met that person. My nor I've worked. And I've worked in the prison setting for the for the last 15 years. So

Guy: 17:03

maybe walk us through how does it go from? I'm going to try something to like that, too. I can't stop.

Aaron: 17:09

I'm going to try something. Oh, I like that. It makes me feel a little bit better. The next time I feel distressed the next time I feel bad. Maybe I go for a walk maybe I exercise. Maybe I talk with somebody, you know what that did not work as well as insert or as far as quickly? Yeah. I think that there are some exceptions to that rule. Opiates are probably an exception to that rule. Heroin, as an example is notorious for really just getting you

Guy: 17:37

the first time the first time right nicotine is that way too, right?

Aaron: 17:40

I don't know about nicotine so much if it's a first time thing, but it's definitely people who have kicked both will tell you that nicotine is the hardest. I'm sure it is the hardest thing I ever kicked. That's what I hear.

Jamie: 17:50

Yeah. I you know, and I think about the other the coping mechanisms that we try to teach like exercise and journaling and all that they require intention, they require. And and so what I find with clients who struggle with addiction is then it starts to lead to well, I'm going to feel anxious at I have to be at this thing tomorrow night. So I'm going to now drink before I go, or I'm going to indulge in this behavior before I go. Anticipating the discomfort. Yes. Versus I'm waiting till I'm uncomfortable to indulge in that behavior.

Aaron: 18:23

Yes, people get completely in their heads, and they use it prophylactically Yeah, as it were.

Jamie: 18:28

Yeah. So what how do you have a feedback loop? How do you see people? I mean, I know there's no addiction in the prison. But do you see? Almost exclusively? Yeah. So tell me about that. Like how what, how have you seen the role of addiction in the work that you're doing?

Aaron: 18:47

So to be clear, prison is a pretty awful place. Yeah. It's dirty. It's disgusting. It's boring. Yeah, it's hotter. It's cold. You have to ask permission to do almost anything. And it's everywhere. addictive substances are everywhere. And so it was

Guy: 19:04

eye opening for our last time we met with you. Yeah, was the prevalence of some of these things that we would never how do they get it? How they get it? I mean, something as simple as a cell phone, which then ask the question, how do you charge it right? And how do you and and it's like, oh, yeah, they're on their phones. And they're doing this like, yeah, all there. It's so

Aaron: 19:22

it's never not there, then.

Guy: 19:25

So it's all there and they have access to

Aaron: 19:28

it. And they have access to it. And they have nothing else to do. And it's a horrible environment to begin with. Yeah. So why wouldn't you write I sometimes say this to myself, if I was an inmate, and I had a 22 life sentence, and there's no real likelihood that I was ever going to be paroled. Why wouldn't I? There are answers to that question. Yeah, obviously, but that does occur to you like why would I would not be doing the same thing? Yeah, just numbing out just numbing out. So many of the medicines that we give them to treat schizophrenia or some of the other illnesses that exists Have those side effects where they just numb you right out? And so? Yeah, definitely. So if I've got a 10 year sentence to do when I just want to sleep that away, yeah. No, because when you're asleep, bad things can happen to you. Oh, God. Do that. That's the answer to that question. And so people who use uppers, amphetamines always sort of surprised me in prison, because now you're stuck in the cell where you're doing double time. You're completely amped up, you've got nowhere to go. You there's probably someone in there with you, because most inmates are double celled, and you're high on meth. Oh, that sounds completely awful. Yeah.

Jamie: 20:37

And so how do you see Have you ever seen people work through addiction in prison? Yes, absolutely. And how do they do it? I mean, what, what is it that you see is effective in treatment? Because I know, you know, you. I always when I'm talking to people about addiction, and my experience is a lot more limited than what you're exposed to. But I always say you're going to start and stop a million times. Yes,

Aaron: 21:00

relapse is part of the process. Yeah. So I think the most effective interventions are the honest ones, where you sort of lay out the process for them. You normalize the idea that you're going to make mistakes and go back to this and it's okay, you still need to come in here. And we still need to work together. You can't just hit eject on the entire therapy process because you made this or that mistake. You can't come here. Hi, by the way, it's my one rule. You can't come into this room.

Jamie: 21:26

I've actually had that same rule because I've had clients come Hi. And I've said we're not gonna

Aaron: 21:31

Yeah, at that point, you're just not remotely invested in this. I mean, there's a whole host of things that are going on there.

Jamie: 21:37

So I'm gonna take your keys.

Aaron: 21:41

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, we don't have cars. We don't have those. The day will come. I am hoping. Yeah, it means we'll be able to smuggle in cars. Maybe two door Bronco, two doors or two cedars? Two Door Bronco. Yeah, I'll let you know.

Jamie: 21:57

So how do you see like, what do you feel like, is the catalyst for change in addiction?

Aaron: 22:04

It's so different, depending on the individual that you're working with. So for some people, they find motivation in their families. I have children I want to get out of here, they find a why when I did they find a

Guy: 22:18

watch. I was gonna say, what's the why? Why would someone want to beat addiction? Yeah.

Aaron: 22:23

But ultimately, it has to be you. Because I'm doing this for my kids. I'm doing this for my wife. The same thing when you're not in prison. By the way, I'm court ordered to come to treatment, my wife told me to come to treatment, or she is going to leave me those things are all transitory, they don't really last. And so eventually the y has to be you. And so that's what you're working towards in therapy. Where does this distress originally come from? More often than not, it's abuse? How do we cope with those feelings of distress, and sooner or later, you have to be the why? Because you know, you're worth it. And you have this inherent value. And

Jamie: 22:59

I haven't felt like the cycle of domestic violence gets into that addictive pattern. So they go into this cycle, and then the cycle after the violence, there's that huge release. There's that honeymoon phase of okay, I'm never doing this again. And how many addicts say, this is the last time all of them, they all suffer? Yeah, it's like, this is the last time and they'll say it 1000 times.

Aaron: 23:24

And it's crazy. Because they will also tell you, I have never experienced the same height as I did that, that first time I feel like I'm always chasing. And even though they know they're chasing, even though they know that this time is not going to be as good as that first time or even the last time they still do it. Even though they know that you know their livers at risk or, you know, a longer prison sentence is that risk or whatever it is. My marriage is at risk. My job is at risk. They still do it.

Jamie: 23:53

Or they hurt somebody in an accident or they you know, whatever role you're seeing guys land in prison, because drunk driving, how many of the inmates you've worked with are in prison. And at the time of their crime? We're not high or drunk or

Aaron: 24:08

almost none. Okay. Yeah. Most people were were impaired chemically altered. Yeah. Most people were high when they committed the crime. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. If it wasn't for drugs or alcohol, I wouldn't be here. I hear that all day long talk. If it wasn't for drugs or alcohol, I wouldn't be here. Wow. And it's sad. Yeah,

Jamie: 24:26

it is. And it's true. It is so and and you know, when I travel outside of our country, and mostly I just go south. And I think Oh, and we actually have more laws and regulations than other countries about substances. Yes, we do. Because even when you go to Europe, and other places, there's less restrictions. And I think, are their prisons as full as ours are always curious about like, is it something culturally or what is happening? You know, why is addiction such a big problem?

Aaron: 25:01

I don't really that's a great question. I don't really have an answer for that, except to say that so many of our so now I'm just talking about prisons and inmates, so many of our inmates are there for gang related violence. Does that make sense? So I don't know, if they have the same gang related problems. I'm sure that they have them to some extent, and Sure. Other parts of the world, definitely south of us. Yeah, they do. And a lot of that spills over to what we've got going on here. Maybe with the amount of freedom we have in our society, there are more significant consequences that come with that. I'm just thinking off the top of my head. I

Guy: 25:40

don't Yeah. Do you think answer going back to what you're saying about addiction? How most of the people in prison were not in their normal state when they committed their crime? And we're tying that back to potentially addiction is what manifested that behavior? Right? Is there? Is it a cautionary tale to why treating addiction is so important, like because if you are addicted, will you eventually end up on that side of the law? I don't know how or can you go a whole life and just hide your addiction and be normal?

Aaron: 26:14

There? Are I'm certain people who do there have to be right. And I wouldn't really know because I'm on that other side where I just get the people everyone was there has everyone that's there has? Well, if you ask them. They have not been there and isn't they shouldn't be there. But yeah, I'm on the side where everybody there has I struggled to see though how, sooner or later, you don't end up doing something that at the very least you regret significantly.

Jamie: 26:45

Yeah. It's often divorce or loss of jobs, or lose your job and leisure

Aaron: 26:49

family, you might not end up in prison. But there's a better definition like

Guy: 26:53

negative consequences. Yeah,

Jamie: 26:54

yeah. Well, I mean, even just having this discussion, right, like, just, we're not going to solve the world's problem with addiction today. But so for the case of conversation, I have a question about your thoughts on intervention. Okay, tender, you know, what is that what it's called? When, like family members gather? Oh, we're gonna have an intervention, right? It to get you into treatment?

Guy: 27:18

We're here to talk to you today.

Aaron: 27:20

It's funny, you mentioned that, because Jamie?

Guy: 27:29

Here, Circle K.

Aaron: 27:31

What's the negative consequence? There isn't one, right? So it's not in

Guy: 27:37

the world is better place every day, right out of the intervention.

Jamie: 27:42

But there was even a TV show like a reality TV show years ago, I can't remember what it was.

Guy: 27:47

You can still find it. It's, yeah, I've watched it.

Jamie: 27:49

Like it's this big intervention. And I, I've always had really mixed feelings as a therapist. And sometimes I'll get questions from fans, because a lot of times I'm treating family members. Oh, yeah. And not necessarily the addict. Sometimes we discover the addiction in therapy, and always refer them to an addiction specialist. And I'll work on the relationship piece. But usually, if there's an addictive behavior in a marriage, it'll come out during therapy at some point. Yeah, sure, well, but if I'm working with parents of a 17 year old who's doing drugs, or whatever, that's one of the most common questions is should we do an intervention? And I'm always kind of a loss. And I'm curious, from your experience, what you feel about that? Are they effective? Are they not?

Aaron: 28:33

I have never worked with somebody who had their family members do an intervention. And it worked. That doesn't mean that they don't, yeah, it just means I've never met that person. But I struggled to imagine a world where it would it's almost like trying to talk somebody who's psychotic, out of their delusions. Yeah, you cannot do it. That's not where their brain is. There's no amount of evidence that you could present. And so with an intervention, what are you going to say to this person? We've noticed these behave? There's nothing you can say that they don't already know. Yeah. That they've already excused.

Jamie: 29:10

It goes back to what you're saying. They have to be there. Why? And so I always joke with them, you've hit bottom, they haven't hit theirs yet. So until they're at a bottom and feel like something has to change, whatever you say, or do I feel like they may appease you or start a treatment program, but it may not.

Guy: 29:31

I think that

Aaron: 29:32

it's going to be the first of 90 Yeah, yeah. Which isn't

Jamie: 29:35

uncommon.

Guy: 29:36

And I think if I really pick apart like an intervention, it really is a chance to reset boundaries. And and if the why for addiction has to be within the individual. It's really an opportunity for the family or the group around that individual to say, here's my boundaries, and going forward, this is how it's going to be and then they are left to win. with their addiction, right? Yeah,

Jamie: 30:01

yeah. And which maybe that's what it's a better use for

Guy: 30:05

intervention sounds like a proactive I'm gonna stop this for you. And the reality is, it's an inner veining in this kind of thought process to pull back and say, Hey, you're moving on, and I'm staying here right now, this journey.

Aaron: 30:21

This is how it's affecting me. Yeah. And I'm not. I'm not along for the ride anymore. But you talked about rock bottom. And there are, there are people who would disagree with me completely. And I respect their point of view. However, they're wrong. I think that there's such a thing as rock bottom, because it can always get worse can always get worse. Yeah.

Jamie: 30:40

Do you feel like there's a point that every person?

Aaron: 30:46

No, I like how we did it. It's almost like

Jamie: 30:49

I guess I feel like it's where that the place where everyone is. So you know, because it's different. Yeah. And that's what I'm getting to is that there's the different stages of change that, you know, you can be in that pre contemplation

Aaron: 31:04

later, or you don't even know anything. Yep. And you could,

Jamie: 31:07

you could be in there forever. Never want it to change. So rock

Aaron: 31:11

bottom is almost always defined after a person has found sobriety and they say, that was my rock bottom,

Jamie: 31:17

okay? They don't identify it when they're there.

Aaron: 31:20

No, they do not. Okay. Or even before, this horrible thing needs to happen to me. And that would be my rock bottom. We could sit here and name very famous people who are no longer with us, because they've passed on. And if I were to ask what their rock bottom was, we would all say, well, death. Yeah. Right. They kept using until it killed him. Yeah, I think most people would say, prison would be my rock bottom. If I were to end up in prison, then that would certainly be assigned to me that this thing that I'm doing is not working in my favor. And I got to stop. Yeah, yet. And still, they come to prison. And all they do is use it's worse.

Guy: 31:53

Yeah. So now you're in prison and using, right? Yeah, that's the rock bottom. Right? Like, oh, going to prison. That's the worst. And from there. I'll be like, I

Aaron: 32:02

lost my family if I lost my job if this if that Nope. Still using? Yeah.

Guy: 32:08

And I think, yeah, what's a bad day in prison, then?

Aaron: 32:12

That's a different discussion. Disclaimer.

Jamie: 32:19

All names are changed,

Aaron: 32:20

generally, generally, changing the names of the guilty. Protect. So

Jamie: 32:23

this is my other question. Cuz I, I think about this topic a lot. Because it, it comes up because there's so many behaviors that becomes everywhere. And I work with a lot of teens and young adults. And then I see I see this issue surfacing a lot in marriages, whether it's through pornography or or fit, I do see a lot of gaming and adults. And so I was called pixel

Aaron: 32:49

crack for a reason. Oh, I've never heard that.

Guy: 32:53

term would

Aaron: 32:55

crack.

Guy: 32:56

Pixel crack. Yeah,

Jamie: 32:57

that's interesting.

Aaron: 32:58

Yeah. Are they even still pixels? am I dating myself? Yeah,

Jamie: 33:02

I don't know. I don't even have a console in my

Aaron: 33:07

we have to. Okay.

Jamie: 33:09

My daughter reminds me all the time. We are the only people in America who don't have a gaming Come on, she's correct. I use it I go, and I'm perfectly okay with it. So it might look different every if she wasn't an only child, but I just weave it my husband's nice, big gamer. So I guess.

Aaron: 33:29

So I'll tell you briefly the kid we might even have talked about this last time. But I'll tell you briefly, the cannon family experience with video games, we have them. We have PCs, we have consoles, I encourage their use. But there are expectations for both of my kids. I have two of them. And the expectations are that you are active in your church's youth group, that you come with us to church on Sundays, that you are playing at least one sport at all times. And that you are getting good grades. And both of my children have heard good grades as straight A's. I never said that. And that's not the expectation, but I'm not going to correct them. Right. And that belief, they can continue to overachieve for as long as they want. And the joke a little bit is on them. Because after meeting each of those minimum standards, they don't really have time. Yeah. To play games. Yeah. But they do still play and we do still have them. And some of the more I like I said, I encourage it, there's no at this point, at least negative consequences, but some of the more phenomenal conversations that my daughter and I have had. She's at that age where it's increasingly difficult to connect with her. So you have to be into what she's into to have these discussions. If I try to talk to her about stuff that's important to me, she could not begin to care less. So I'm into whatever she's into and learn about it and I can ask questions while we're on Broadway.

Jamie: 34:50

I'm learning. I'm learning to appreciate

Aaron: 34:54

Thank goodness it's not.

Jamie: 34:57

Sometimes I have to be like not today. Today that I can do, that's what I have, the lights are down. I can only take so much, but my daughter, like she has a list of every part she would dreams of playing in her life, right? Like she's just but that's her passion. So it has become a part of my life. Yes. But I think when I think about things that become addictive, I always, and I may be addictive.

Aaron: 35:25

We started this conversation by saying that almost dead, it's really a symptom of misery. And so when we think about addictions, and we, when we think about how do I help this person, as therapists or as people who are just trying to help remove the actual addictive behavior from the equation for a hot minute, and just think about the distress and how I can better help this person manage distress,

Jamie: 35:50

and this is one of the things that I focus on with my clients is, the addictive behavior becomes one dimensional. And we're not one dimensional human, no one. And so that's why it can get us in trouble. So if you can go back to coping strategies, like where there's multiple, like, I'm going for a run, or I'm going to, you know, meditate, or I'm going to go to a yoga class or whatever I'm going to do get mindful, then all of a sudden, I'm doing something for my mind and my body, and I'm making a connection there. Where as the addictive behaviors fall more under me that one dimension of it's an escape and escape is good. Sometimes it's

Aaron: 36:30

an escape, and it's immediate. Yes, that's the battle we're fighting. Yes. That's why this is so uphill. And

Jamie: 36:35

that's why half of America's paying $50 a month in a gym membership. They never,

Aaron: 36:39

they never use, we should be owning a gym, not doing podcast. But that's the battle that we're fighting, and it's uphill. And to be fair, we are really not the best at treating addiction because of that. Because it's so difficult because it's uphill, because we're asking them, Listen, I need for you to do this thing that's really, really hard. And this other thing that you were doing was way easier, and probably more effective long term. But you have to trust me that this is going to work for you over time. Yeah. And a lot of people just sort of look at us and go, I don't care, you're lying. Whatever, I'm not doing that I'm doing the thing I know that makes me feel better

Jamie: 37:15

I am where I'm finding a struggle is now that I'm working with a lot of young adults, college kids, and they may go off to college, and they were fine in high school. Maybe they didn't drink they didn't. Their video gaming was kind of under control. They get to college, and now they're on academic probation. And it has their gaming all night. And at

Aaron: 37:35

home, they had a net, yes. And somebody watching them. And now they don't and they don't Yes.

Jamie: 37:40

And then or they got curious about alcohol or that whatever it is. And so then you have a lot of parents are like, Okay, you're coming home. And, and I tend to say I don't think that's the best, I don't know, what we want to do is they don't I don't want them to be afraid to try another way. So let's go back to school, or lets you know, and this kind of, like, let's see what will work. And I I've stopped using the term negative emotion. Because I just say we have uncomfortable emotions, and we have emotions that feel a lot better than others down emotions. Because we will say like, well, anxiety is a negative emotion or depression as a no, but it's it's a human.

Aaron: 38:21

Yeah, absolutely. It's not it's not fair to make those things pejorative anxiety. Yes, fear exists for a reason. It exists to keep us safe. Yeah, yeah. It's you need it and say attention to it to have feelings,

Jamie: 38:33

depressed feelings is appropriate. If I fail a test, and that depress me, that doesn't mean I have clinical depression, no, or, you know, but we have these appropriate responses to what life gives us. And I think we're in a culture right now, that doesn't want to be uncomfortable. And so how do I get comfortable?

Aaron: 38:55

Well, first of all, we over pathologize. Yeah. Right.

Jamie: 38:58

Why do you think that comes from

Aaron: 39:00

how we have so much free time to just sort of sit around and put labels, our profession has to be the absolute best at giving names to things that already had good names? And it was probably

Jamie: 39:12

everyone's like, Oh, I feel depressed six days away.

Aaron: 39:16

Yes. Well, you've got any medical doctor, and they will tell you, Dr. Google is not good for you. But I think it was probably the third my third year of graduate school before I figured out that psychosocial adjustment social, and that psychotherapy, judgment therapy, and it's psychosexual adjustments, so we just throw the word psycho in front of everything. And now we

Jamie: 39:36

sound really sparkers don't do that. Well,

Aaron: 39:39

psychologists do, and it's not helping us. Just kidding, I think. So yeah. We spent a lot of time over pathologizing. And we have so much free time and we live in this culture where so let's go back 100 years, 150 years. Those of us in this room from dawn to dusk, we spend our time just surviving, right? We're planning we're harvesting were whatever it was that we needed to do to survive. That's what we were doing. We don't do that anymore. Yeah, we have nine to five jobs as it were, Uber Eats, we have Uber Eats us.

Jamie: 40:15

The young generation does I say that my kid with a cold cheeseburger, but the young generation uses it all the time.

Aaron: 40:22

My son had a job working as a delivery pizza guy. And he was making granted you have to include inflation, but he was making six times an hour what I was making it that same age six times. And he didn't even know what to do with all that money. It was just laying around in his room. I'm not making that up. He had ones and fives and 20s just scattered throughout his room. Yeah. What an existence.

Jamie: 40:50

$3 an hour. Right. lifeguarding job.

Aaron: 40:53

Yes, exactly. Mine was that it was the exact same job, the same job.

Jamie: 40:57

And I remember getting $1 an hour to babysit five kids. Right. And

Aaron: 41:00

we were excited. We're happy to have it. My daughter hates it when we do this. She hates it. The whole generational years. It was harder than mine. She can't stand it. Yeah.

Jamie: 41:10

It is. She's right. It is a different world these kids live in

Aaron: 41:15

it is and I don't know if I would have survived it. Yeah, I was not built

Jamie: 41:19

for way habitability. And that's where I think when parents are parenting from fear, like, Okay, I'm walking down screentime and gametime. And all of this, I think it comes from a place of fear, which almost has a the opposite effect of what you're hoping for.

Aaron: 41:35

Well, you said at best a minute ago, we don't value failure, the way that we used to value failure. That's how you learn. For people who have ever suffered depression on some level, that speaks well of you, that the depth of the sadness that you can experience, remembering that there's an opposite to everything. That's also the height of the happiness that you can experience. And there are people who don't experience either of those things. And it's a little bit sad, because that's part of what the human Yeah,

Jamie: 42:00

experiences. Well, and I always will tell people, when they're explaining what they're feeling, and how much they don't like feeling that I'm like, but that it's okay, that you're feeling it, though. That's part of the human experience. Right? And we'd be worried if you weren't, yeah, yeah. And I would be worried if you weren't anxious before first date, I'd be worried if you weren't anxious before, before a final or whatever it is, like these are what help us succeed and grow and learn about ourselves. And it's interesting, because we're in this culture, that's all about self discovery and acceptance, yet, we can only show the highlight reel,

Aaron: 42:39

correct. We can only show the highlight reel

Jamie: 42:41

that's and so in the highlights are five minutes.

Aaron: 42:45

Yeah, you know, and a lot of life they're not highlighted

Jamie: 42:49

and, and that's what the living is, is the hard part. And the kind of the discomfort of life and people don't like it. No, they don't want to go through it. Yeah. And I think that I compare it to the Olympics. Like I love love watching the Olympics. Absolutely. And I always think I could have been a pole vaulter, I could have been a curler, or I should have be ice dancer. In my six foot glory, there's a curling there's no one lifting the ice.

Aaron: 43:18

Here in Carlsbad, there's a Korean one

Guy: 43:20

club. Oh, wow. Yeah, we're just watching that the other day. And the kids are asked that they're like, where do you do this? There's one here. It's Minnesota.

Aaron: 43:29

Mostly. But there's one here? Because I wanted to take our youth group. Oh, yeah. I wanted to take our youth into a night of curling because they're so competitive. And I can just imagine them out on the ice fighting with each other. Right? You call that sweeping? It would have been amazing. Yeah, that would be I want to try.

Jamie: 43:45

But I think I watched the Olympics and you're just so inspired. Right? But then you realize that most of these guys, I mean, you know, you watch these gymnasts, right, Simone Biles and Shawn Johnson, and they started when they're four. Right, they did homeschool they did never went on a date. They I mean, they just went or whatever. Yeah. And,

Aaron: 44:08

and there's only how many are on the team? Five? Or, and how many gymnasts are there?

Jamie: 44:14

All across the country? Is it really? girls all around the country doing gymnastics? Right? Yeah. And very few of them are gonna make it to the Olympics. No five of them are. But what happens is we have to start doing things because we love it. And and this is how I want to spend my time and it enhances who I am versus I'm going to achieve influencer status or

Aaron: 44:39

because that's what they have in front. That's what we have in front of us all day long. We have influencers and we have

Jamie: 44:43

and I think that's what leads kind of to addiction, right is then we have this drive that we can't achieve. And so we just fill that vacancy with things that kind of numb you out and I've seen a number of kids kind of drop lopping off college or putting it on pause, because they made some dumb choices that I think are pretty normal young adult years. Yeah. And I just think now, just pick yourself up and, and get back, you know, you might fail again this semester fully. But, you know, this is how you're gonna figure out what works for you. It's where the learning happens. Yeah. And I think we've, we've, we're checking boxes, and we're not really, and we might be educating people, but we're not learning as much as we need to be.

Aaron: 45:33

So talking specifically about teenagers and parents, in the checking of boxes, how many teenagers actually are achieving what they're achieving on their own without parental intervention, chatting with coaches, chatting with teachers, sending emails to different people, Hey, I realized that my son got an 88. But he really should have had a 94 oversight. That yeah, would they have done or achieve this if we just asked them to and left them alone? Yeah, maybe not. But there's so much pressure, so much pressure,

Jamie: 46:06

and then that pressure bleeds, you know, my daughter got in the car the other day that they had finals this week, and she just started burst into tears. Yeah. And I said, What, what's wrong? And she's like, I got 89.9. And I was like, I was like, sweet B plus cuts it, take it and, and she's like, I had a goal, you know. And I know, it's funny, because my husband and I are not like, we weren't straight A students. So we don't expect her to be sturdy. We just expect her to do her best, right? And I said, Did you do your best? It doesn't matter. And I just stopped her. And I said, Where are you getting this? Right? Because it's not from us? No. And she said, at school, they talk about preparing for college, when you're a freshman, She's a freshman. Oh, wow. And I said, Oh, honey, this is like your English class your freshman year in high school. You're giving it a lot of power. You're giving it a lot. And when you're my age, you'll be like, Wow, who was the teacher? What what class? Was it? I was just upset? Like, and you're

Aaron: 47:09

or you won't even remember? Remember? Yeah.

Jamie: 47:12

And you'll go to college? Yeah, that's right that day. Nine, you're still going to college? Yeah. It's gonna be an option for you.

Aaron: 47:21

Pretty amazing. You can be in prison. And yeah, there's a lot of education going on.

Guy: 47:28

There you go, don't worry as well. Like there's

Aaron: 47:32

speaking of safety net, right and go to prison and still get a degree. So Watson is like

Jamie: 47:38

that pressure, right? And, and wanting your highlight reel to be the 24/7. Real is not

Aaron: 47:44

it's not to be, it's not going to be and you lose so many wonderful experiences, when you just spend your time in that pressure. Thinking about high school. I'm thinking about my son who graduated this last June. And certainly COVID played a role in that because he didn't have a senior year. But I think about dances that were missed, and just fun, nutty things that were missed experiences that we used to do that he did not because he spent so much time being terrified he wouldn't get into college with his 4.3 You're gonna make it crazy. Yeah, we're gonna make it's gonna be alright. And even if you're not this is, this might be what the real fear is. Because this is what we say. Even if you don't, you will have a room here with us. Yeah. And I think that's what terrifies them. That might be why the 89.9 is scary. Because if she flunks out, so she's stuck with you.

Jamie: 48:37

Don't have a game.

Aaron: 48:39

And you don't have video games. Well, yeah, now's the time. Buy a console if you can find what That's

Jamie: 48:43

right. Well, I mean, there's so much I could pick your brain all day. And and we'd never get to the bottom of your experience. Knowledge.

Guy: 48:54

Do we have time for prison confidential? Like? Yeah, what do you want to know?

Jamie: 49:00

What's your what's your burning question?

Guy: 49:03

Yeah, no, I think so. This is this is great. I think the addiction in my mind, I'm like, Okay. Addiction, like, like you were saying, it's a gateway

Jamie: 49:14

conversation.

Guy: 49:15

I tried to connect the two like,

Aaron: 49:17

there is such a thing as gateway.

Guy: 49:19

That's why Aaron's on my left jayvees On my right. I'm like, okay, prisons over here. Maybe I have an addictions over here, like, and somewhere in the middle of all goes wrong, right. Yeah.

Aaron: 49:30

Yes, it does. There's that there's that moment. So Well, yeah.

Guy: 49:33

What's the what's the cautionary tale, or the advice that you would give to, you know, a parent that's like, oh, maybe this is more than just, you know, a recurring activity that maybe I don't like and maybe I see some, you know, negative havior coming out of, obviously, they're not going to prison yet, or maybe ever early, but how do I how do I put some guidance there without overreacting? Right, putting them in bubble wrap and never let him leave the house.

Aaron: 50:04

So I have two answers. The first one is don't do it alone. Okay, there are so many professionals, why not just reach out? Yeah. And take advantage. It's funny that we do this in mental health if your son or daughter came home and they were like, I think I might have broken my arm. Would you check it yourself? And say, Yes, you did? Or no, you didn't? Oh,

Guy: 50:22

I might be guilty of that.

Aaron: 50:25

So that's also not reportable? No, you would take them, almost certainly, to the doctor. But we don't do that with mental health. We don't do that with depression, anxiety and addiction. We say, I know we can fix

Jamie: 50:40

this happening because goodness with COVID Think good. I feel like kids started talking about their own mental health concerns, because I know I've had probably more parents calling saying my kids are asking for help. I need to find some way. And it's really good. The hard part is we're all really full. Like I mean, I'm bursting at the seams. And all the therapists I know working with teenagers are bursting at the seams, which is good, because that means there's and, and sometimes I think it's funny because kids like they may run into me, I might be chaperoning a dance or something, huh. And they'll be like, oh, there's my therapist. I think in our next session, we're going to talk about boundaries. Because they're like, they're they're all my friends. They're the taboo,

Aaron: 51:28

right? Or maybe that's cultural and we leave it alone. Bringing back to prison. Every inmate knows exactly who every other inmates clinician is oh therapist is and it's one of the first questions that gets asked when you hit the yard who's your doctor gonna be? So the way that it works is we have what why is that we have a yard that is specifically mental health. Right? So everybody on my yard is in the mental health program, which means each one of them has a clinician social worker or picture

Guy: 51:55

where you say yard in between guys working out? Yeah, yeah, it's out of that. A yard.

Aaron: 52:00

you're picturing that? Correct. Rasen? Yeah, no, no grass. Oh, rocks. Oh, yeah. Well, we're drought California.

Guy: 52:07

Okay, so Rocky,

Aaron: 52:09

watering the prison? Yeah, no, it's it's Rocky, and they have their own ammo for when the riots kick off. It's an amazing thing. Wow. Who has their own ammo? The inmates, the officers have pepper spray and firearms. They don't need the rocks. Oh, the rocks or the ammo? The ammo. Unless they brought a knife with them. i Well, based

Guy: 52:27

on the stories, they all say they have shells and

Aaron: 52:29

stay off where they often do right there. They're often packing. But that's part of the culture. And so that one of the first questions, like I said is who's your doctor whose caseload Are you on? It's part of their culture. They they're very open to sharing. My doctor told me this his holding that. Yeah, even in the prison serving that therapy on the yard there. Yeah. Yeah, you're guided with the singing and the guitar and standing in the corner. And it's straight out of a bad movie or a cartoon, but you do see it.

Jamie: 52:59

But that's it. You think well, what if that stigma had been taken away when those men were 12? I

Aaron: 53:04

cannot even tell you how often I hear if someone had explained this to me. If I had known this when I was a kid or a teenager? I would not be here. Either that or if I had grown up in your house. Yeah, Doc, if I had grown up in your house, I would not be here. Yeah. Sadly, I think that that's true. But in going back to teenagers, and that's my therapist. Okay, if that's the culture, and that's what it takes to make this acceptable then. Okay, and who ra Yeah. All right. Let them have it. So that was my, the first half of my answer. The second half was this. Take it back to the definition. Take yourself out of that situation as a concerned parent, or loved one. And ask yourself, what is the negative consequence? Right continued use despite negative consequences, what or what is the potential negative consequence?

Guy: 53:53

And that's a can be interpreted, right? The individual may not feel as negative the parent can feel very negative. Or

Aaron: 54:02

parents house. It's your house parent decides? Yeah,

Guy: 54:06

there's like, wait for the show.

Jamie: 54:07

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's true, right? Because a lot of times when those kids turn 18, and parents are like, I don't know what to do. Like, there. There's drugs and there's what's your house?

Aaron: 54:19

What have you been doing? I didn't do anything. Well, that might have been a mistake. Yeah. You should start doing something now.

Jamie: 54:24

And now that they're adults. You can you don't have to keep it.

Aaron: 54:29

If there's so much that you think isn't there's so much just closing your eyes and hoping for the best. Yes, as a parent, like I didn't see that. That didn't happen. Yeah, it's not gonna affect them.

Jamie: 54:36

I call it white knuckle parenting.

Aaron: 54:41

That was the traffic coming down here.

Jamie: 54:44

Yeah, because there are times I find myself doing that. Hmm. When she's just describing her school day of 4500 kids and what she's hearing or seeing them all

Aaron: 54:54

because you're surrounded by worst case scenarios. Yeah. You were if you worked for For an agency that was responsible for sending out repairmen, if I weren't to

Jamie: 55:07

read them. I wouldn't be afraid. I don't think. So yeah, I give myself a little generosity because of my profession, but only see. It's like when I investigate a child abuse, and I would see a child screaming in the grocery store, and all of a sudden, I found myself trailing that. I'm like, Alright, see someone like leaving church with their child? And I'd kind of like just stealthily follow them. Like, I think that child's being hurt jotting down license plates. Yeah, it was bad. Because all of a sudden, I just thought, well, everyone's abuse,

Aaron: 55:36

it does negatively affect us. Yeah, the providers trauma.

Guy: 55:40

That's my other question is working in your environment. Oh, and your perspectives on this? Right? How do you? How does that show up in your life, you know, so the

Aaron: 55:50

number one skill or characteristic of a good therapist is a person who has the ability to self soothe know their limits, but take care of themselves right above everything else above having tools in your toolkit and appropriate interventions and understanding the different personality theories, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you have to be able to take care of yourself. And so for me, specifically, there are a few things that I do I love to surf. And I'm very blessed that I have children who enjoy doing that. So I get to do that with them. I have my video game time. That is a distraction technique. For me. It's my I do it early in the morning before anyone wakes up. Because nighttime is family time and cuddle time. And all those things that are important every morning. I wake up early, no, but are still asleep. Nobody knows. Nobody cares. Yeah, so that works out no adverse effect. There's no ads. That's right. There's no adverse effect that works out.

Jamie: 56:43

I think another important part as a therapist, for me is detaching from outcome. So when I can detach from outcome working with my clients, and that's, that's a skill that's taken time for me, because I can remember when I was a new clinician, I would take them home with me, so to speak, yes, not literally, but figuratively. And I had to learn how to detach from outcome like, it's their life. And all I can do is teach them tools and guide the process. And they make the choice I have

Aaron: 57:13

seen in the prison system, inmates who get in fights, and then their clinicians will take that personally in such a way that these two clinicians are now not talking to each other angry with each other. Like, that's just a whole nother level of being invested in that outcome. Yeah.

Jamie: 57:30

And that's a big thing. I've actually learned from Terry real guy I trained with that he's on Boston. And his big mantra is detached from outcome. Yeah,

Aaron: 57:38

I don't have a dog in this fight. Yeah. And that helps me.

Guy: 57:41

I don't have a dog in this fight. Literally,

Aaron: 57:43

as well as figuratively. I knew one of you would pick up on that. I wasn't sure which one, but I knew it was not going to go unnoticed.

Jamie: 57:52

It's a good thing to think about.

Aaron: 57:53

Yeah. So as mental health clinicians in the prison system, we get sued, we get sued a lot for any number of different reasons. I joke that I have preferred inmates by the inmates. I joke that I have preferred parking at the Chula Vista county courthouse for you're looking very confused. What could they possibly sue us? Yeah, right. Any number of things, whenever they don't get their way, a lawsuit is coming. So as an example, if an inmate wants to be there's no,

Guy: 58:17

there's no grievance process, it's just right to lawsuit. There's both

Aaron: 58:20

okay, there's both Yeah, we don't need one or the other, we're gonna do both. We're gonna do both, or there's a number of different grievance processes, but as an example of an inmate wants to be

Guy: 58:30

there so that you are serving us here.

Aaron: 58:33

Yes. Your clinician, your doctor can go to custody staff and say, you know, from a health reasons this inmate needs to be in a cell by himself, he can't have a Sally for three months for six months, for a year for forever. And if they ask you for that, and you don't give it to them, a lawsuit is coming. And at that point, as you're walking into court, and you know, you're about to be asked these on some level, absurd questions that are not at all related to what you really do as a mental health professional. You have to say to yourself, he gets it he doesn't get it. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. I'm still going home. To my wonderful little family. My life is gonna be the exact same trickery for me right now. Just listen to them like you because they're very insulting. The other lawyers

Guy: 59:17

are very How could you walk in and be like, we all see what's going on here, right? Like,

Aaron: 59:22

but you can't you can't Oh, you can't you just answer your question. And you learned my notes. Say I've learned that's I've learned that that's my answer. Well, what am I not say? Yeah, I don't remember mom's. I'm over 50.

Jamie: 59:35

I know and I've had clients like storm out or whatever. And I have to do to I'm like, Well, alright,

Aaron: 59:41

well, there's this thing right in mental health. If your patients are never angry at you, they're probably not. Yeah.

Jamie: 59:46

And I always joke when I have couples

Guy: 59:48

ever in my coach training. You welcome

Jamie: 59:52

when couples have stormed out. I have joked when I've processed with another therapist. She's like, hey, maybe you joined them over you like came together and they'll never come back.

Aaron: 1:00:05

You disrupted the cycle.

Jamie: 1:00:08

The cycle there it is. So yeah, but that that that's been huge for me.

Aaron: 1:00:12

I haven't done couples counseling so long. Yeah. And I just tell you, you'd be really good at I haven't done it in so long in Maidstone come to me with marital problem. No, my Sony and I Yeah.

Jamie: 1:00:23

I actually really like marriage work. It's fun. Because they're motivated usually.

Aaron: 1:00:28

Yes. Well, so I did.

Guy: 1:00:31

I'm just playing out a snare in my mind them to cellmates like, Yeah, well, you won't believe what they did. Yeah, I did this and then they're

Aaron: 1:00:38

up all night. They won't share the TV.

Guy: 1:00:42

I have no privacy in here.

Aaron: 1:00:43

he brushes his teeth for two minutes. All the water. I used to do I used to do and I was counseling,

Guy: 1:00:52

my toilet wine and he messed it all up.

Aaron: 1:00:57

There's so much to say. I don't know what I'm allowed to say what I say. But it is

Jamie: 1:01:03

you do do couples counseling when we were together? Yeah. So it's it's good.

Aaron: 1:01:08

The fear though is that by the time they come to us as a couple,

Jamie: 1:01:12

it's six years too late. It's too late. According to Gottman, most couples will wait six years. And and sometimes like I can tell when when usually what happens when those couples that have waited too long one is like at the ultimatum stage. Like we're doing counseling or it's over. Yeah, and the other ones like I didn't know anything was wrong. It's so true.

Aaron: 1:01:38

It's so why are we here? Yeah. And neither of those things are okay. ultimatums are not okay. Being completely clueless. Yeah, so

Jamie: 1:01:44

and so then. That's a touchy the guy is clueless.

Aaron: 1:01:47

Am I right? Yeah. Yeah, I guess that correctly.

Jamie: 1:01:50

So it's just uh, it that that gets tough when they wait too long. Cuz I'm like, you know, I'm a terrible paramedic.

Aaron: 1:01:57

Yeah.

Guy: 1:01:58

Yeah. And I mean, ultimately waiting way too long. Is goes right to Yeah. Aaron's working with Right, yeah, yeah,

Aaron: 1:02:06

I have a few of those. Alright.

Guy: 1:02:08

Anyone that's like, I didn't even know there's a problem. Like, I don't know why I'm here

Aaron: 1:02:11

until I killed her. It's a prison discussion, right? No, I don't have anyone like that. They knew something was wrong.

Guy: 1:02:21

Hey, Doc. I don't know. But

Aaron: 1:02:27

they say they're innocent. They know they're not innocent. I in the 15 years that I've been there, there's only ever been one guy who told me the tale. And I thought to myself, he might be after having gone through the court transcripts and seeing that what he's telling me is actually what happened in court, because often what they don't know that I can see right in front of me. Right. So they make up? Yes, yeah, exactly. But what he's telling me is exactly what he told the court and I thought to myself, he could be telling the truth. He might actually not need to be here. Yeah. That'd be there is some there is some segment of the population right? What do they say 1% or 2% or 3% are wrongly convicted. Whatever. That would just be awful. So just

Jamie: 1:03:07

so awful. thing now let's go into that's why she went to law school.

Aaron: 1:03:11

Yeah, good for her get overturned. Yeah. For though the 1%. That yeah, she's absolutely wrong. You

Jamie: 1:03:17

help someone who was wrongfully imprisoned for a number of years,

Guy: 1:03:21

and pop culture and probably no offense, Kim, but there might there implied the implication is that there's 50%. Right. It's much bigger problem

Aaron: 1:03:30

one, maybe. And we in California, I would I don't know how many inmates it is. I think it's 120,000. Last time I looked, we have 120,000 inmates. Wow, that's a lot of guys. We have I think it's 33 prisons, out of those 33. Prisons. How many do you think are for men? And how many do you think are for women? 6040. So it might have just changed. 31 for men, two for women. Oh, wow. Okay, that's not 7525 majority, like, that's 9010 We can

Guy: 1:04:01

just say, oh, yeah, we

Aaron: 1:04:02

can just say Oh, that's right. We can just say oh, wow. Yeah, we're violent people. Yeah, men are the research didn't already show that. And the prison system showed you. Yeah, are the statistics on suicide? We complete much more often because we're violent. We're not missing

Guy: 1:04:17

my where I grew up in Washington, the closest prison was a women's facility. So a lot of ladies in jail around.

Aaron: 1:04:27

That's one of those things thank goodness you didn't know. You're not supposed to know. Yeah, you're not supposed to know it's it's

Jamie: 1:04:33

interesting. Well, it's always interesting to talk to you and get your perspective because your your perspective comes from like that that worst case scenario from horror. Yeah. And and I kind of like guy gets the guys at the beginning like Hey, I just want to make my life

Aaron: 1:04:49

just anymore, guys. Just to be clear. We need more guys. Yeah,

Guy: 1:04:53

for those listening. Yeah, I've been a little quiet on the addiction front because that's the red flag. Like

Jamie: 1:04:58

if I'm talking to I'm going to a life coach for addiction. Exactly.

Guy: 1:05:03

And if something does come up, I refer, right. So it is Friday, I'm a little kind of have my popcorn out just because it is I, you know, coaches use a little more proactive and, and you're like, how's

Jamie: 1:05:17

that working for you?

Aaron: 1:05:18

But we need more of that. I think

Guy: 1:05:21

that starts the conversation and gets good habits and good practices that kind of self maintain that mindfulness

Jamie: 1:05:29

and it teaches people to there's alternative behaviors. Yeah. And and skills to engage in besides an addictive behavior. And you're also teaching them that it's okay that it's uncomfortable. Yeah,

Aaron: 1:05:42

yeah. That most importantly, yes. It's okay. That is uncomfortable. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:05:45

I feel like a broken at the end of the day. I'm like, today send that to everyone, like 10 times like, it's okay that these

Aaron: 1:05:51

and then you wonder if it's you. The only thing I know.

Guy: 1:05:57

You work with a client you'd like to talk to you about? Yes. Tell you the story already. This story.

Jamie: 1:06:08

Or this analogy? Yeah. I have to

Guy: 1:06:11

come in waves. Like, I think this is the third time I talk about this today. Yeah. Is it me? Am

Aaron: 1:06:17

i Repeating or am I over caffeinated?

Jamie: 1:06:22

No. No adverse. Full Circle. Well, thank you so much area. Absolutely. Anytime I'm in you say anytime and we're gonna take you up on that topic. We're just like, Oh, that'd be good for Aaron.

Guy: 1:06:40

Yeah. And if there's you have questions or you know, you're curious about more insights from Dr. Aaron here, you know, put him in the comments, you know, follow us reach out to us DMS.

Jamie: 1:06:50

We'll have him back to answer them. Here we go.

Guy: 1:06:53

Well, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for tuning in. And listeners. It's always a good time here on the podcast on the Davenport

Jamie: 1:07:01

and nighttime which is different for us.

Guy: 1:07:04

Yeah. Morphine. Yeah. That's the end of it.

Aaron: 1:07:09

That's the way we have our systems.

Guy: 1:07:13

Have a great week, everybody. And like and subscribe. Thanks so much for listening this week. Stay connected by following us on Instagram or Facebook at the Davenport podcast. For more information on coaching services with Guy, visit his website, TheCoachGuy.net. For additional information regarding counseling services, the Daring Way Curriculum, or relationship counseling, please go to JamiePyattLCSW.com. The Davenport Podcast is a production of the Davenport Education Group. Show hosts are Guy Balogh and Jamie Pyatt. Our producer and editor is Erin Balogh. Our outreach manager and production coordinator is Monica Strang. Thanks for listening.

Jamie: 1:08:06

The Davenport podcast is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. Although Jamie is a licensed clinical social worker and guy as a professional life coach. The Information and opinions shared by the hosts and their guests are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. The information on this show does not create a client therapist or coaching relationship and should not be taken as professional advice or guidance. Please consult with your physician or qualified health care provider regarding any medical or mental health conditions.