The Harm of Toxic Productivity: Your Worth Is Not Determined By Your Output

Guy: Please Note: 0:00

*** This transcription was done through computer software, so there could be errors throughout the text. ***

Guy: 1:17

Hello, everybody. This is Guy, and I'm here with Jamie. Hi, Jamie. Welcome to the Davenport.

Jamie: 1:25

Thanks. It's good to be here.

Guy: 1:27

It is a another Friday and we are in the studio recording.

Jamie: 1:30

Yes. I'm curious if you have Halloween hangover.

Guy: 1:33

So much.

Jamie: 1:34

We had a big block party at your house and I was like these guys are gonna be so tired this week. It was good. Back to back was fun. Everyone was amazed. I still think we need to put your video of your house on our Instagram. Oh, we should have the one where you put it to the Eurythmics you know, like, oh, yeah, because we keep talking about it on the show. And I just think people need to see your Halloween effort.

Guy: 1:59

People probably think there might be a couple pumpkins. Yeah, you know, like over the top. Yeah, it's a stage project. I'll admit, like it's taken me years to admit this, but it's like a stage progression and

Jamie: 2:09

Santiago takes Halloween pretty seriously. Like they're the neighborhood that I told you to go to where there's like four houses strung together. And it is literally like you're on the Pirates of the Caribbean and in Disneyland

Guy: 2:22

well done. Kudos to those people I drove by I loved it. Yeah,

Jamie: 2:26

I mean, it's like traffic I mean ticket into the neighborhood. And apparently if you dress like a pirate on Halloween, they give you full size candy bar. Oh, like oh, well, Guy and Aaron pass out.

Guy: 2:39

So this is this is the one limitation right so by choosing this Halloween lifestyle we can't go anywhere on on Halloween. Yeah, I can't travel anywhere for most of October because we're turning on and off lights all the time. And then on Halloween day The show starts at about 233 o'clock Yeah, I got to go get ice for the fog machines. I got to make sure everything works. everything plugged in turn on all the strobe lights turn on and and you barely get it all done by the time the first trick or treat arrives. In fact, that's one of my big pet peeves. Yeah. Are those 430 trick or treaters? Yeah, like shows not ready

Jamie: 3:18

it's not dark yet,

Guy: 3:19

but this year I was like okay have the easy candy that the the little little candy penalty

Jamie: 3:25

candy.

Guy: 3:27

I'm going to start calling it that. The penalty gets the early penalty K here's your Tootsie Roll. Yeah, cuz we did we were doing full size. Started to full size doesn't start till dark.

Jamie: 3:36

But we didn't get that many trick or treaters this year. Oh, you didn't? Yeah, I was surprised. Usually we have hundreds you know like I'm at a candy by eight and like the last few trick or treaters that came. Just before eight. I was giving them like handful of candy. And they're like

Guy: 3:55

the parents like we understand she wants to close down. She's

Jamie: 3:59

like, I can't have all this candy in my house. Yeah. So yeah. Well, you guys always do a great job. Super fun.

Guy: 4:05

Thank you. Hey,

Jamie: 4:06

yeah, let's let's drop a little. Okay. Picture video just in

Guy: 4:10

case someone's like, oh, they might do a couple things. It's a little more intensive.

Jamie: 4:14

Yeah. Like, even when people are out of town. I like drive them and your whole neighborhoods getting into it. They're all into it. Yeah. It's pretty fun. But then what was hard for me is you know, on Monday, I didn't have to work and so I was taking all of our Halloween decorations down. And then that night, we're still doing that, by the way.

Guy: 4:32

I can't Yeah, I'm sure going on for the whole week.

Jamie: 4:34

But then that night when I was driving down my street people had their Christmas lights. I was like this is stressing me out.

Guy: 4:42

I need a breather Thanksgiving. Just give thanks kids. As because I saw that the next day. And I flat out said setting the expectation very, very clear. My boundary is December 1. Yeah. And

Jamie: 4:53

I like and mine is the day after Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving. You can listen to Christmas music all of that but not until then.

Guy: 5:00

I may jump the gun on Christmas music. Yeah, fact I'm probably guilty that in the carpool. Okay. Yeah, that Monday I turned it on and the kids are like, What are you doing? Like not yet? Yeah, that Mariah Carey song

Jamie: 5:14

that never leaves your head?

Guy: 5:17

I haven't pulled out the ouiser. We wish. That's a good one.

Jamie: 5:23

That isn't good one actually. So good.

Guy: 5:26

Well, all over the place there. But it does kind of relate to our topic. Before we jump in there. We got to do the reminders. Thank you. Thank you everyone that subscribes and follows. And please continue to share with your friends and get the word out there

Jamie: 5:40

about our podcast. Yeah, we had a couple of new reviews this week. So it was nice. Yeah,

Guy: 5:43

thank you so much for all the reviews, all the support. A special thank you to our Patreon subscribers. If you don't know what that is, please go check it out. It's a way to support the show. And it keeps us from having to do commercial ads through our our podcast. So check that out. And with that, we will jump into our topic. So today talking about Halloween productivity.

Jamie: 6:09

Was it toxic or not? Right?

Guy: 6:13

I think there's a yeah, there's a fine line. Right. So we're talking about toxic productivity. And this is kind of a play on or continuation from when we did to toxic positivity.

Jamie: 6:22

Yes. And I think it actually is a good follow up after our episode with Jim about doing your best. Yes. And that being good enough. Yes. And because toxic productivity can you know get in the way when we get into that obsession with self improvement and, you know, doing our best or Halloween?

Guy: 6:42

Halloween decorations? Right? Where do you stop? When is it good enough?

Jamie: 6:46

And sometimes, you know, that feeling comes when no matter how productive we are, we still feel guilty because we haven't done more. Right? That's when you know, it's toxic. When you're start weighing and laying guilt on you. No matter how much you've accomplished that day that you're like, and it still wasn't enough.

Guy: 7:04

Yeah. And so with that thought we were in kind of preparing for the show. I was like, wow, I actually need to just sit back and learn. I think this is an area that I can improve for sure. Yeah. There's a lot of times I mean, running your own business, doing the show. Doing coaching. Yes, my when I put it in, yeah, when I put it to do list together, it can have 2030 things on it. Yeah. And as you're doing, you're like, I'm not gonna get this all done today, right. But I got to try.

Jamie: 7:33

But sometimes, and it's something I've learned is like not to stress about what didn't get done, right, so that I've come a long way. Now, Dave might not think so. But I feel like I've come a long way.

Guy: 7:45

This is where the spouses did

Jamie: 7:46

away. Dave probably would say yes, in the 17 years, we've been married. I'm much better than those. Like the first few years, I was really impatient about certain things. Now, I'm like impatient for a minute. And I'm like, Okay, this is gonna take a while. For example, we have a house full of company. It's Halloween weekend. And I get up Saturday to take McKenzie to surf practice. And there's drywall on my car, you had a

Guy: 8:12

spooky surprise. And I look up and there's

Jamie: 8:15

water dripping from the garage ceiling. And I'm like, Oh, crap.

Guy: 8:20

I just was like, that's never an Oh, yeah.

Jamie: 8:23

And so Dave, like, runs upstairs. And there was something in one of my daughter sinks that had been leaking all night. So anyway, we call in the troops were like, using box cutters to cut the carpet and my heart is just like, oh my gosh, you know, because we have company. And you had guests in the house in the house, like a two year old. And I mean, like little ones and Halloweens the next day. And it's the holidays come like around the corner. And you can't find a construction worker in within 100 Miles who has any availability in the next year, you know, so I just was like, Oh, this is not going to be pretty. So now we have to like get my daughter's bathroom and get new carpet. So I was joking with her my guess what you're getting for Christmas. Yeah. Bathroom.

Guy: 9:15

So it with toxic productivity? Yes. Then what is the what is the tendency in a situation like that?

Jamie: 9:21

So in that moment, I was starting the to do list. Yeah, like, Okay. I mean, immediately, I texted a friend of mine who's a general contractor, and I'm like, Hey, do you have names of a drywaller a Tyler, a plumber, you know, all of these things. And, and my husband is like, going surfing. I mean, he's like going surfing and I was like, Wait, you're you're going surfing. I was just like, incredulous, you know? And he's like, Well, we put the carpet up. There's nothing we can do until this all dries out. Right? He's absolutely right.

Guy: 9:58

And I think that's the key because No one's gonna say, oh, making a list of what to fix is bad.

Jamie: 10:03

Yeah, but, but it's not going to help the situation in that moment. But

Guy: 10:06

by by focusing or dwelling or stopping life, yes. And until this is all finished, right?

Jamie: 10:12

So I was like, at first I was just like, I, I might have real extreme feelings of anger right now. I actually didn't, I was more confused. Like, wait, you're really going surfing? He's like I am. And because we had pulled the carpet up and yeah, dried everything out. And, you know, his perspective

Guy: 10:30

was we did everything we can. Yeah. And it is. It is there. Yeah. So

Jamie: 10:34

and I like feeling like, we got to look at the budget, we got to look at our savings account. Yeah, that is totally where I was going. So then my daughter's like, I gotta get to practice. So I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna take her to practice. So I grabbed my air pods, and I take her to practice. And I go walking, and I'm down at the beach, you know, I go for like an hour walk in the fresh air. And so by the time I get back to my car, I'm feeling pretty good. And I actually see a friend of ours, down at the beach, and he's with his kids and his kids are on the surf team. And his son Carson was holding his nose with a bunch of tissues. And he had gotten hit with a board and ended up getting 10 stitches in his nose. Ouch. And, but we're all standing in the parking lot. And they're, you know, they built that big, huge obnoxious hotel down at panto. And so then, you can just hear this music. I mean, a DJ, it's like a club and but it's like nine in the morning. And coming from a hotel. Yes. And there's this and there's all these beautiful, I mean, it's an Indian wedding, right? So these beautiful women in the I mean, the the dress and the I mean, it's just like, you're just seeing all these people come out of the hotel for this wedding. And but it's so early for a wedding, right? But you can just hear the speakers and the night before. Yeah, maybe I don't know. And so but the groom is coming in, right. So the bride is like hidden, oh, the groom is being brought in, like it's a parade like he's on the back of this convertible Ferrari. And so I'm sitting down in this parking lot with all these surfers. We're watching this procession and listening to the music and it's just like the DJ, you know, it's like loud and, and they're all dancing and jumping. And it's nine in the morning. And my house is like flooding. And I'm in my mind, and I just remember sitting in the parking lot going, everyone's life. It goes in so many different directions. Like, here's my friend trying to get to an urgent care. So his son can get stitches, and these people are getting married and, and my husband's surfing and I'm trying to be like, it's okay, like, it's all gonna

Guy: 12:40

be washed away. In the flood. In my mind.

Jamie: 12:43

I'm like, the mold is already growing, you know. And so I think sometimes what that toxic productivity can do is create stress. Oh, and not actually not even imagine stress. Like it's real stress, but not necessary.

Guy: 12:57

Right? It gets the cortisol going, right gets you activated. Right. And, and being an activator that this is where I feel like I totally relate. Yeah, cuz it gets you up. It gets you high key stressed. high functioning. And when you pause, you're like, for what? Right? Yeah, yeah, you're not gonna go and tear your house down rebuild it right moment. But yet you have the energy almost to do it. You're mentally going that fast. Yeah. And, and so that's when it becomes toxic. Because that over time, or repeatedly over and over and over. It hurts your health.

Jamie: 13:29

Oh, yeah. So when I even when I started calling, like drywallers and stuff, they're like, Yeah, I can come give you an estimate in six weeks. I'm like, so anyway, we

Guy: 13:38

have six weeks of high stress, waiting for that to happen. So the pilot

Jamie: 13:41

Hyatt went from two stars to one star. So we think that's probably gonna cut down on gas. They're gonna be like, there's only one working sink.

Guy: 13:49

renovation. That's right. Well, I have to my perspective is funny. So I heard this from you at the Halloween get together. Yeah. And Dave was there too. Yeah. I was calling by the time you weren't. You weren't? Yeah. You weren't running around. And yeah, but I knew it was like, stress, stressful event. Yeah. And I remember thinking, Dave didn't even mention it. So I kind of went every day and say, Hey, you had some some stuff happened to that? Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was very, it happened. And they were gonna fix it. You know? Yeah.

Jamie: 14:23

You know, we marry but we have to heal in ourselves.

Guy: 14:28

I just I love the perspective because I can relate to you and be like, what are we doing about it? Yeah. And then the other perspective is like, yeah,

Jamie: 14:34

and Dave needs a little more of that. And I need a lot more of him.

Guy: 14:37

Yeah. And I even part of his perspective, like, what we were gonna fix things in a way and it's just kind of accelerated that. Yeah. Now we get to make some choices. And he's like,

Jamie: 14:46

yeah, yeah, no, we're gonna get our bathroom is uh, now it's like God going into the bathroom. I'm like, it's not gonna be bitter about it, though.

Guy: 14:55

We'll just use that one. Yeah.

Jamie: 14:58

That's right. So I think that's where you know, and then it was the, the irony of it all is having this kind of crazy weekend. And then the next day, I had to do two presentations on emotional resilience. Sometimes, you know, you get asked to do things like that. So I was laughing I'm like, Oh, funny the, the powers that be are giving me some good material to teach from. So it was good because I just sometimes you have to be like, Okay, I need to kick into the skills that I have and the tools I have to handle the situation better. So I had a little minute freakout. And then when my husband really went surfing, I was like, Okay, there's really, if he's not worried about it, then what is me worrying about it gonna do? Nothing. Yeah. So I was able to go on my walk. And then we spent the afternoon going to Home Depot and Lowe's and doing those things and kind of coming up with a plan.

Guy: 15:48

Yeah. Well, and checking in with yourself on that mindset and viewpoint, yeah. allows you then to make a choice.

Jamie: 15:54

And I did ask him when he got home, and like, I just really need help understanding how you're not worried about.

Guy: 16:02

Like, how are you taking our story? Yeah, like you're

Jamie: 16:04

not stressed. Like, he's like, I am worried about it. So then we're like, able to have this conversation. Because you know, he's a very

Guy: 16:11

bright guy. Sorry to interrupt. I know. It's a good point. It's so he is worried about it. You're worried about Yeah, right. You both are on the same page there. Yeah. It manifests in different ways. Yeah. And I think that's where toxic productivity. Yeah. shows up. Yeah. Because if you're both worried about it, and the end result is six weeks, you have to wait for someone to come fix it. Yeah. You can get all spun up and make life pretty miserable for yourself or the next. Everyone around you for the next six weeks. Yeah. And over function and try to compensate that it's that hustling? Yeah. Or you can say, Yeah, we haven't taken care of. And yes, I can be the prettiest bathroom for the next six weeks.

Jamie: 16:47

Yeah. Or eight?

Guy: 16:50

Well, Merry Christmas. Yeah, but it's not. You don't want to be competitive, like what's not the end of the world? And the truth is that we're gonna be okay. It's a leak. It's okay.

Jamie: 17:00

Yeah, like, everything's gonna be okay. And so, you know, and it's like, we were talking about emotional resilience, like when I can shift into that place of gratitude, like, Okay, well, I'm glad it wasn't the toilet, I'm glad it wasn't, you know, both seats or whatever. Like, we have a working scene where like, we could turn the water off on the one and we can function right now. And it's gonna be okay. And so I put it takes me longer to get that to that space. And Brene. Brown talks a lot about over functioning, like in families and under functioning. And sometimes that's kind of how I was looking at this as I was kind of studying, when does productivity get toxic? And so it was funny.

Guy: 17:40

Because to be clear, like, productivity isn't a bad thing.

Jamie: 17:42

No. So we need it. Right? And we absolutely need it. But that's what we're saying is when does it become toxic? Yes. And so there are a couple of signs, I think to look for, to understand at what point do we kind of cross over to that point where it's toxic. And it was funny, because I was talking to you about some of these, you're like I did that.

Guy: 18:03

The things Jamie's gonna list here are everything that guy does currently, everything guy needs to work

Jamie: 18:09

on. Like one of the biggest signs of toxic productivity is the inability to turn work off. Right? So like laying in bed, and you're doing it to do list or you're doing and so like, even that night, when I went to bed, I was like, shout out to the voice. I'm like, I'm gonna watch the voice. I don't know why I like that show. I just do I cuz I love music. I

Guy: 18:30

know you're a fan. Yeah.

Jamie: 18:31

And so it's helped me because I'm very big Ariana Grande mad because the Disney days, you know, she would talk like, drove me nuts like she.

Guy: 18:43

Her lack of enunciation gets me every time.

Jamie: 18:45

I say God, she's a guest coach this year. And I'm like, Oh, I like her a lot better.

Guy: 18:51

Yeah. It's funny you mention that, because once I heard her actually speak, and not just from her songs, just

Jamie: 18:57

in that part. She was in some Disney show that I wouldn't let my daughter she was not allowed to watch it because of this character. I couldn't handle it. I'm like, No, you're you cannot watch that. Because I don't know. I can't describe how she talked. Every mom in America knows what I'm talking about. But I just was like, This is not okay. So then to see her be herself. I'm like, Oh, I like, yeah, she's a good judge. And she's really good with the kids. She works, but I'm very encouraging. And she cries every time just to send someone home. So I like she's an empath. You've been converted. I digress. Right. So. So yeah. So when you make that to do list as you're falling asleep, it's just kind of indicative that you can't turn it off. But you made a good point earlier when I was talking to you about this.

Guy: 19:42

Yeah. So for me I do. A lot of times make a to do list by fall asleep because I am over functioning. And that's a way for me to let it go and clear it out. Like if I can put it on paper. It gives me permission to let those thoughts go. And then it kind of clears my mind and allows Good to fall asleep. But most of my day, those thoughts are just bouncing around in my head and competing for priority. And that's how I found to quiet it. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because I am over functioning. I am borderline toxic productivity. You know,

Jamie: 20:17

I think too, it's like when you your computer's in sleep mode, but your screens on, right, like, it's that same kind of concept. Like, are people sleep right next to their phones? Like, I can't miss anything? Yeah. And you can. I mean, 20 years ago, no one could get ahold of you from work.

Guy: 20:34

Yeah, well, so that's a good thing to mention. I, this constant need for productivity is cultural. Yes. It's not just made, sometimes it feels like it's very personal. Yeah. But culture can kind of put that out there and then adopted and the

Jamie: 20:51

pandemic I think made it a little bit worse, because now he brought work home, like now we're all working from home, so to speak. And so now, it's like, everyone's like, well, I can just expect you to respond, even though I'm emailing you on a Saturday, about this work thing? You know, and I get, I get texts from clients at all kinds of times. And and I think know that they'll hear from me Monday morning.

Guy: 21:18

Yeah, the acceptable range of contact hours, right? As broadened

Jamie: 21:23

Oh, yeah. Because I'm having a thought at 2am. So I can send an email. And when they haven't responded to me, I'm like, have they not read this yet? Yeah, you know, and so our expectations have shifted. And I think this idea of being able to clear your mind is good, as long as you're really able to let it go. And it's not like, Oh, you get up to pee at 2am. And I have to now check my phone and see if I, is there something I can do on that list, or I have to add to that list, you know, at 2am.

Guy: 21:54

Right? And and the opposite of productivity or over productivity isn't to just let everything go,

Jamie: 22:00

right? It's not laziness, right? It's, it's actually goes back to a little bit of having a boundary around productivity, because part of a balanced life is having fun and having downtime and, you know, having a meal together, or whatever that is. And that all revolves, the all requires some productivity as well. But it's having it be kind of diversified.

Guy: 22:21

Yeah. And that's, that's why I always had a balanced life or try to have balance and everything. Because it you you shift,

Jamie: 22:27

right? We think about we diversify your money, you want your money in different kinds of accounts, because so it can build and grow. But if it was all in one place, you'd have so much expectation. And so you know, almost that obsessive, right and a feeling you'd

Guy: 22:42

be nervous about it. And you'd be have really high expectations that that's going to be the end all for your solution.

Jamie: 22:47

Yeah. And so that's that part of you know, doing all of you to do Lester's at bedtime, just pay attention to why you do that. What does it do for you? And is it really helping you clear it out? So you can let it go and sleep well? Or is it like, and when I wake up at 2am, I'm adding to that list. And then at 4am? I'm adding to that list or I'm doing something from the list?

Guy: 23:14

The other thing, and you can check in on yourself? Anytime? Yeah, it's are you able to decouple and, and say, I can take a pause? Yeah. If you feel pressure or guilt or the shoulds come or the shame shows up. When you want to take a pause. Yeah, that's something get curious about Yeah, like, what is going on here? What is the pressure? Yeah, who's the pressure? Is it me? Is it someone else is my environment? Is it you know, it just an area that, you know, we don't think about a lot because we're just go, go, go, go? Go?

Jamie: 23:46

Yeah, I mean, I remember in my 20s when I was a volunteer for our church in Texas, one of the guys I worked with, he was also a volunteer, he had this big to do list. And one time I was reading it, and I was kind of like teasing him. I'm like, Why do you floss your teeth on here? He's like, brush your teeth, floss your teeth, you know? And he's like, Well, it just feels good to check them off like, oh, wow, like, okay, yeah, like, I just, he just liked having this list of things to check off. And I was like, that's fine. As long as it's not this obsession tied to your sense of worth a human being, you know,

Guy: 24:22

so I may have been guilty of putting something on the list just so I could check it off. Something I already finished. Yeah. I did brush my teeth, hold on, brush, check.

Jamie: 24:33

There's something satisfying about the check, right. The second part to this is the fear of failure. I mean, nobody likes to fail, right? I mean, so that's very common fear. And sometimes that toxic productivity gives us a false sense of control. Like if I do all these things, then this isn't going to fail. It's not necessarily true. And I think then you can set yourself For greater disappointment and a greater fall, because now you're exhausted and you've put everything into this, and not getting the result you want.

Guy: 25:08

I'm having the image in my head right now. It's a Scooby Doo reference. Okay, our Scooby Doo fans of you know, like, when Shaggy and Scooby are run from the ghost, they first get started and their legs spin, like in a circle. Oh, yeah. And they're not going anywhere. Yeah. And then they take off. Yeah. And I feel like that. If your fear if you have that much fear, right, that you're like, I gotta get away for this. I gotta I gotta keep hustling. That productivity isn't as productive as you think. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're mentally so wrapped up in not failing, that you don't have space to think of creative solutions. Yeah, or strategic solutions, or, or explore new opportunities.

Jamie: 25:49

Well, and if things don't go according to plan, and you shut down completely, it just tells you like, you're tying a sense of self to the outcome. And there's a phrase in clinical work. And a lot of therapists and students of Terry real became really familiar with this phrase of detaching from outcome. I like that. So when I have a client come in, like sometimes when couples come in, sometimes I feel like I'm more invested in their change than they are, right. I'm working so hard. I'm reading books to help them. And, and

Guy: 26:23

every moment I have that in coaching, where we're talking through something, and then I'll pause be like, wait, I'm working harder than you here. I'm gonna stop like, this is your job?

Jamie: 26:32

Yeah. Well, sometimes I fire my clients, I'm like, I don't think you might as I do.

Guy: 26:41

But that's a good example detaching from

Jamie: 26:44

attaching from the outcome. So it's kind of learning not to care so much. And so when my end, it's not saying I don't care about my clients, I do, but their outcome is completely dependent on them. I'm there to guide to mentor to give tools and solutions that I've learned and studied and trained for 25 years to gain, but I'm not in charge of their outcome. You know, whether you're under functioning or over functioning, I have to detach myself from the outcome. Yeah. And so sometimes, I have to do that even, like, with my expectations for this bathroom. I, in my mind, I know this is not going to be done before the end of the year, as we've been calling guys, you know, no one has time to even come out and give us a bid for five weeks getting worse, every ordered a new vanity that's like six to eight weeks. I mean, I just am like so in my head. I'm like, okay, it's okay. Like, it's just gonna be okay, and letting go of that need to have control. And

Guy: 27:42

we have a show pedestal sink in the warehouse. If you want to borrow it, you can install that for them.

Jamie: 27:48

Right, go go back to two stars. Yeah. So but I think it's that fear that can drive that productivity

Guy: 27:54

for sure. Yeah, no, I'm thinking of our, you know, Aaron eyes journey with our own business. That is a big space that I've had to personally receive coaching on about detaching from. I'm not the business, right, I help run the business. But whether the business does good or bad does not make me good or bad, right. It's, it's so close. It's not close. It's his shame, right? You start carrying it around like I'm, if this business is not doing well, or this isn't doing great, then I'm great.

Jamie: 28:26

Right or bad, right? We do this with our kids all the time in grades.

Guy: 28:30

Yeah. And so detaching from that outcome. Yeah. Like no matter how much productivity I throw at it, it may not change the outcome. Right. Right. And and so if you're okay with that, it puts you in a much less toxic place.

Jamie: 28:44

Right, right. I mean, like, I have kids in my office, right, who are taking some pretty tough, challenging courses. I mean, these kids are taking classes that weren't even offered at my high school 30 years ago, right? I'm like, what classes are even heard of it, you know? And so these kids are working, like, what was it that Monica's daughter is taking agricultural chemistry. I'm like, what is that? And so you know, she's explaining it to me, and I'm thinking, Oh, my gosh, they didn't even offer stuff like this when we were growing up.

Guy: 29:15

That was right in between the typing and the drivers.

Jamie: 29:19

Typing Driver's Ed and ceramics like I mean, I don't know, we just went to a fancy school. And I remember taking like food, we cooked food, how to sew on a button, like learn these basic skills. Now button falls, breaks and they're like, I guess I need a new shirt,

Guy: 29:40

or they're learning how to 3d print buttons.

Jamie: 29:43

Yeah, I mean, it's just a whole different world. And so one of the things I've been working with kids and parents on is this concept of the toxic productivity because if one of the same my clients getting a C, and the parents are writing this kid, and the kids in my office in tears, Right, like I am doing the homework, I am going to a tutor, I am doing the best I can. And actually I feel okay about this grade, because so hard. I have to talk to the parents about like, what's the message you want? In the end? What's your intention? So you want them to have a better grade? I get that because you know they're capable. But what if this is the best thing that

Guy: 30:23

you want them to also feel good enough?

Jamie: 30:25

And so if that's the best thing that how does this impact them over the next 30 years? A C and agricultural chemistry, right? Well, not huge, but we get into fear, right? Well, this is going to limit what college they can go to this is going to limit, you know what classes they can take next year. And it's also going to cost you your relationship. Because now all you care about is you know, and so we get into doing things out of fear, we parent out of fear, we go to work out of fear instead of you know, this is something I love and feel passionate about. And sometimes, you know, I can remember having a really tough teacher in college for a international policy class. And I think I got to be in this class. And I was like, proud of it. Because this guy was, I mean, he was known for how hard he was. And I got A's and lots of classes where I was like this class was, I don't even know what I learned in this class. But I got an A in it. But this be like, I learned so much in this class, that it meant a lot to me. Yeah. And I think we have to learn how to change how we attach value to things, and accomplishment. Right? So if you floss your teeth, now I'm a worthy person, because I checked it off my list. But if you don't floss your teeth, what does that mean about you that you're a failure? Do you know what I mean?

Guy: 31:50

Exactly? Well, I was chuckling as we're saying that because I made a joke about typing class, but I dropped out a typing class. And I never finished at school drop. An error note, I am not a typist. But I am the do you use your index fingers? Oh, and pinky. So I'm a three finger typer. And I can I can keep up with some pretty like, yeah, and I'm a visual typer too. So I have to look at the keys over and over disclosure. But I'm okay. Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah, but I remember the conversations like, if you don't know how to type, like, you're not gonna go anywhere.

Jamie: 32:32

I actually wrote to in contact with my typing teacher. Oh, dear.

Guy: 32:36

I've disclosed this to the right person.

Jamie: 32:40

I was like, thank you. I got so many jobs because of that.

Guy: 32:45

In fact, and then, it did come back to haunt me I did a interview once for a job is actually to be like a police dispatcher. Oh, yeah. And there was a typing test. And I failed that three times.

Jamie: 32:57

You're like, and Michelle

Guy: 33:01

was the truth was, I didn't really want the job anyway. And then I was like, now I'm judging myself because of this skill. Like, yeah, I finally did pass it. And then it was like validation. Like, it didn't even matter, like clunky typing, and I still was able to do it. And then I didn't have

Jamie: 33:16

kids today type. They're like, they do it with their

Guy: 33:19

dad, their opposable thumbs.

Jamie: 33:22

And their family. So anyway, okay, so we want to get past that fear of failure, that becomes toxic for us. So and then the third one is burnout. Now, this is something we see in our kids, we see it in ourselves. We see it as parents, we I mean, we experienced burnout. And I think we have to be aware of how we experience it, and the early signs of it so we can take care of it.

Guy: 33:44

Correct. Like in ourselves, and that exam you give the parents and the child. Yeah, you can inflict that feeling on someone else. If they don't feel like there's worthiness there's there's no way for them to be good enough. Yeah. Typing had really bugged me so bad that I dropped out of school. Yeah. Right. There's kind of catastrophic consequences that can come about, oh, yeah, we have to be careful as

Jamie: 34:07

well. And if you ignore the signs of burnout, I mean, that leads to so much stress, that there's physical consequences to that, you know, I mean, like, there can be high blood pressure or looking straight at me. Oh, no. But anyway, no, just that you have to pay attention to. I mean, for me, that's why exercise is such a big part of my life, because it's how I actually manage those stressors. Yeah. And, and I think it's just, you know, asking yourself how you there's a physical aspect to that stress

Guy: 34:38

and, and you allow yourself to pause to say, I need to go do something physical exercise, go for a walk, do something. If you're stuck in this hamster wheel of productivity. Yeah. And don't allow that. Because you don't have time. You're afraid of failure. If I if I take that one hour to go do that. I'm gonna miss a call. That's exactly what we're talking about. Yeah.

Jamie: 34:59

So The way to have around this is that self care. Yes. And when you feel those first parts of burnout, it's like, what are you doing to take care of yourself? You know that feeling on Sunday night sometimes when you're like, anxious, like you have work the next day or like you see it in your kids about school the next day, like, okay, then maybe we didn't do some self care over the weekend, like to refuel and recharge. And so we have to even look

Guy: 35:27

over or we procrastinated something. Yeah, it was important. Yeah. Good point. Now it's caught up with us. Yeah. And and now we're going to be over productive, right. Yeah. To try to compensate for

Jamie: 35:38

Yeah. Which puts us to bed later, or we have to get up early, or whatever that is. So yeah, it's being aware of the burnout and knowing what those early signs are for you. And it's funny, because,

Guy: 35:50

because can we say like, if you're in a position of toxic productivity, like this is just chronic for you? Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, burnouts coming. Yeah. It's not a maybe it's not. It's on the horizon, when it's just you may be able to do it tread water for so long. And at some point, it's all gonna collapse. Yeah.

Jamie: 36:08

Yeah. Because energy only lasts so long. Yeah. Not being refueled and recharged. It's just the way it is. The greater

Guy: 36:16

compensate with energy drinks. You know, over lover everything. I mean, yeah, pick your poison.

Jamie: 36:23

And 1970. There wasn't Starbucks. Well, maybe there was in Seattle. I don't know. But yeah. That I mean, it's just like, now it's like every quarter, right? Where we find lots of ways to try to keep up. Yep. And I just think sometimes, like, I remember reading, when, when sleep, like in 2018 2019, sleep was the big buzzword sleep hygiene, right. And there, they were actually building these places where people could pay and go take a nap, like you would go in this pod. It was quiet. And I was just like, what has our culture come to? Like, we can't even give ourselves permission to take this break that we're like, okay, let's have a nap center. Like, I mean, it sounds dreamy. Exactly. But that's like the way we can do

Guy: 37:08

some cool tricks.

Jamie: 37:12

That's called a vacation.

Guy: 37:15

Well, no. Great example, though. Yeah, I can productivity the crap out of vacation.

Jamie: 37:21

We have a work trip, let's say,

Guy: 37:24

or, Hey, we have one week in, you know, some country. Okay, that's pack in 40 things. Yeah. My mom. Bless her heart. So when I was volunteering for my church in Japan, and I had actually saved up money and have my Mom, come pick me up. It's a surprise. So she came over to Japan never been there. And I made that trip so productive, that it almost killed her.

Jamie: 37:50

She's like, and now are we going on a trip? Like

Guy: 37:53

literally, like I think I've started just want to go on trips with me. But so from the moment she got off the airplane, it was like, go. And it was like an amazing race type of thing. We were running all over the country. At one point. She slept on a train overnight. We rode buses. We sleeping in strangers homes. Yeah. And she was a great sport. Yeah. And then there was one moment. And it was the subway in Tokyo. And I was like, Okay, we have to go up four flights of stairs and get catch that train. And we have one minute we gotta go. And she was like, No, I can't do it. I cannot do it. Yeah. And it hit me at that moment. I was like, I have in the spirit of trying to make this so amazing. Yeah, I am making it miserable. Right?

Jamie: 38:44

That's a great example. Right? Of just like that over function or, or that toxic

Guy: 38:50

great intentions, great intentions. And that's the thing with productivity. It usually this comes from a good intention. And we

Jamie: 38:56

need productivity. We want to be productive in our lives. But there's a way to maintain that so that it can carry us through our life.

Guy: 39:04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you can, you can kill it so quickly by not being aware. Yeah. Of the consequence. And even your behavior.

Jamie: 39:13

Yeah, because work is something I've really value. I mean, I value work and the ability to work and to work hard. But I also work hard. So I can read a book, or I can go sit at the beach, or I can, you know, go without guilt without my daughter not judge me on my phone and have to be And haven't we seen that we've all sat at dinner with our spouses and been like, Hey, can you put your phone away? So I just think sometimes we miss a lot of opportunities for personal growth because of that need for toxic productivity. And then the next one was the chronic stress that happens because of it. Right? And the chronic stress is linked to so many conditions like anxiety and depression. And when people come in and they're like, oh is or are people But really just more anxious and depressed? And I'm like, Yeah, because we're actually expecting more from ourselves. That isn't realistic. Yeah. Whereas I think when we were kids, I think about like the 80s. And I talked to this about the teenagers I work with, because we didn't have cell phones and things like that. Like, I mean, you were like, came home when it was dark. And, and you had dinner, and then you went watched, watch the show, like you'd watch ate like, the Hulk. And then you go to bed, right? Like, you didn't have 800 channels, 24 hours a day, you had three channels, and at 1030. It looked like poltergeist TV. Like it went off the air, and there's nothing on until 6am The next day. And so the world got quiet. Yep. And the world doesn't get quiet anymore. It does not 24/7. And so that chronic stress, and availability isn't a healthy thing for us. So that means we have to manage it. We have to learn and that's a hard skill to learn.

Guy: 41:05

Yeah, it takes a proactive approach. Yes. And it starts with awareness. Yeah. And acknowledgement that there is something out of alignment here. Yeah, I need to work on Yeah. And then and then you move into what can I do about it, and not get over productive, like that feed that into Oh, let me get it list and all this stuff. It's just the awareness, and then taking action. Right, right. Right. And, and that could be sitting in a reading book and turn your phone off. It doesn't mean you need to over engineer a system. Yeah, to compensate for this.

Jamie: 41:35

My favorite thing is when people charge their phones somewhere else, right? Like, my daughter has to turn her phone in at night. And she goes to bed and she's sometimes she'll fight me like, I'm not on it. And I'm like, but the temptation is there, and the light is there. And the ping is there. And you just, it's just too much. You just don't need it. Like this. Learn to sleep without it.

Guy: 41:56

We're gonna start selling alarm clocks. Yeah, I think we get the alarm clocks back. Yeah. Then people don't have excuse why they need to keep their phone. Right,

Jamie: 42:02

right. Because they say that right? Yeah. And then the next one, and next sign or shore sign that you're in toxic. Productivity is when success is meaningless. Yeah, oh, it's not good

Guy: 42:15

enough. You get there, you get to where you were hoping to go. Either you've moved the line and it doesn't count. Or it's not satisfying,

Jamie: 42:24

or feels empty and hollow. Like, Oh, I thought this was gonna feel differently hate, right. And so it must not have achieved enough or whatever. So we just keep upping the ante,

Guy: 42:35

right. That's I getting all the pumpkins out in the yard and everything set.

Jamie: 42:40

And every time I thought Aaron's card, there were a couple more pumpkin. That's

Guy: 42:43

right. That's that I'm hustling. I'm like, Well, maybe just a couple more that can be bigger. That needs to be. And there's a point where it's like, it's great. Yeah. Someone from year to year went know that there's three more pumpkins in the spot that I went all over town to try to find the last three. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: 43:02

I remember when I was working with a lot of young adults who were at the age where they were like trying to decide who to marry and things like that. And sometimes I'd meet some young people that felt like when I get married, then Oh, yeah. And I was like, then what? Like, it'll be great. It's just like, Listen, sister, if you can't be happy, alone, getting married is not going to make you happy. Right? So that's what I mean by that. Like when success feels meaningless sometimes. So then people are in my office, they're like, Well, I thought when I got married X, Y, and Z, it's

Guy: 43:38

everything. Right? Or when I when I had the kids, or when I bought the house, or when I got the job, or when I quit the job. Right. I sold the company when I retired. And and the truth is, they're just, they're steps along the path. Right.

Jamie: 43:53

And so I think it's about kind of our personal self development, and who we're trying to be, rather than what we are trying to achieve. Yes. And so when

Guy: 44:04

I asked, and so that goes back to that decoupling,

Jamie: 44:06

right, yeah. And detaching from outcome. Yes. So who do I want to be? So I'll ask the kids in my office, right, like who are crying over a grade and I'm like, okay, so what does this say about you? Is that incongruent with the person you want to be, then that's worth the effort to change it? If, if it's just making you feel like a horrible person, because and unlovable. That's a different thing we have to work on. Right. So I have to help them unpack that a little bit. And so that's what I mean by you know, when we reach that feeling of success feels meaningless.

Guy: 44:41

Yeah. And in tying back to the last point, you know, if you're in a burnout state, and you do have success, it doesn't it's not as rich. Yeah, because you're tired. You're exhausted. Yeah. And so you can't even really celebrate. I've been guilty that like some something amazing will happen. And and everyone's like That's so cool. And you're like, Oh, is it? Yeah. And you're like, it was a lot of work. So you I fit that's right for me. I feel like I'm dying a little inside. Yeah, right. Cuz you're like, I'm so cynical that this doesn't even matter anymore. Like, why am I trying so hard? Yeah. And you get into spiral really quick of why am I doing this? Yeah. Right. Which can be kind of a, a disconcerting place. You know, if your worthiness is tied into it. Yeah. And you're used to it, and it's become a habit. Yeah, it becomes unsettling.

Jamie: 45:30

Yeah. Well, and I think that takes us to the last point, which is watching others be unproductive annoys you. And what's funny is, you know, when, like, let's use an example when my when my husband went surfing, right? In my mind, my initial response was, I was annoyed. Like, how are you going surfing at a time like this? Our bathroom is fallen. And now 17 years ago, my response would have I would have manifested that I would have gotten really angry. I would have, I would have started some fireworks. Yeah. But I was able to just be like, okay, like, go surfing, I had to get my daughter where she needed to be. And that's when I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go watch. I'm just gonna take a timeout, little self management, yes. And then when I came back, I was still able to talk to him about like, not like, I'm so annoyed that you made this choice. I was just like, help me understand why you don't feel more stressed. Or I don't feel like you're more stressed about this, because I feel very stressed about it. And we had this great conversation, went to Home Depot, you know, and then we just have been on this journey all week. So it's been fine. Rather than getting annoyed by someone who is, quote, unproductive, which is the story you're telling yourself, someone who's reading a book, or who's you know,

Guy: 46:54

your example, you had a good reconciliation of your stories, right to say, here's what I'm thinking, here's what are you thinking? Yeah. Okay, we're actually thinking the same thing. We're just manifesting in different ways. Without that, it's really easy to just start fabricating that story and making it bigger and grander and more, you know, dramatic and being

Jamie: 47:12

annoyed by someone who's quote, unproductive is actually you sitting in judgment. Right. Someone else? Yeah. So I just think we have to be really careful when we have those feelings of like letting yourself feel better than because you do more than right, because that's a false self accolade. Yeah. And

Guy: 47:31

this the flip side of that, and I'm guilty of this, and Aaron and I have had to work on this in our relationship is, if someone is actively taking a timeout or a break, or they're choosing to work, it doesn't mean that you have to do it with them. Right. So like, Aaron, Aaron loves to work, right. She's always kind of noodling on something. And there's, I like to put a boundary around work to say, hey, the weekends, I'm not gonna worry about work. And then I'll come around the corner, and she's working on something for work. This is like, it's fun. And without saying anything, then I'm like, Okay, go check those emails. Yeah, I'll go, oh, you feel guilt? I feel guilty, right. She doesn't do say anything.

Jamie: 48:14

And she doesn't care if you're doing emails or not. Right.

Guy: 48:17

And so that's the conversation we find that happens. I'm feeling really, I'm feeling pressure. Now, unbeknownst to you, that I should be working on Saturday. Yeah. Because you're working. Because we're in this together. Yeah. And I'm not I'm not holding my end of the bargain. And so when I verbalize this, she's like, Oh, no, I like I like, this is fun for me. Yeah, you could do something fun for you. And then likewise, you know, if she wants to take a rest, and I'm working, I don't pay well, I want to take a nap. But what I have to do is emails, yeah, right. So I guess that clear communication, sharing your stories so that you're not making up something that is

Jamie: 48:52

and giving people room to do it differently than you? Yes. That's the big thing.

Guy: 48:57

Because we all have different ways that we're productive. Yes, yes,

Jamie: 48:59

absolutely. So the takeaway today isn't to be unproductive. The takeaway is to have productivity in a healthy way. Right? Yeah.

Guy: 49:09

Check. Check in on your thoughts about productivity. Yeah.

Jamie: 49:13

And be careful in how you judge others about there's right I think it's personal.

Guy: 49:17

Yeah. Yeah. And and if you feel there's a misalignment or mismatch, talk about it. Yeah.

Jamie: 49:21

i And I've noticed that even I think it's great that we're talking about this even as we go into the holidays, because as a mom, I know sometimes I want to do these big productions for my daughter, or let's have an elf party, or let's have it this, you know, and then sometimes I'm like, Yeah, this isn't fun. This is like, so sometimes my in service of here, yeah. Sometimes when I strip things down, and we just do real simple things. It's so fun. Yeah. And so I think it's just remembering that too.

Guy: 49:47

Yeah, cuz I and that's a great takeaway like that. When we get into comparison, right? Some people's level of productivity is way different than ours. I'm good, you know, high or low. And it doesn't mean we have to match them. Yeah. Like we're our own individual cells. And so, healthy, healthy productivity is what we're looking for.

Jamie: 50:06

Yep. I like that word. Healthy.

Guy: 50:09

Well go make it a as productive as you'd like.

Jamie: 50:14

And read a good book at the end of it. Yes. Write your to do list on your phone tile

Guy: 50:20

suggestions for Jamie. send them my way. And the

Jamie: 50:23

color palette, I don't know. Or if you just have some workers available.

Guy: 50:29

Every referral for a contractor?

Jamie: 50:32

Let me know.

Guy: 50:33

Awesome. Well, thanks for tuning in everybody. Be sure to like and follow and share this episode and give us feedback. We'd love to hear your thoughts on toxic productivity. Next week, take care. Thanks so much for listening this week. Stay connected by following us on Instagram or Facebook at the Davenport podcast. For more information on coaching services with Guy, visit his website, TheCoachGuy.net. For additional information regarding counseling services, the Daring Way Curriculum, or relationship counseling, please go to JamiePyattLCSW.com. The Davenport Podcast is a production of the Davenport Education Group. Show hosts are Guy Balogh and Jamie Pyatt. Our producer and editor is Erin Balogh. Our outreach manager and production coordinator is Monica Strang. Thanks for listening.

Jamie: 51:28

The Davenport podcast is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. Although Jamie is a licensed clinical social worker and guy as a professional life coach. The Information and opinions shared by the hosts and their guests are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. The information on this show does not create a client therapist or coaching relationship and should not be taken as professional advice or guidance. Please consult with your physician or qualified healthcare provider regarding any medical or mental health conditions.