How To Disagree Without Being Disagreeable (aka: The Art of Respectful Discussion)

Guy: Please Note: 0:06

*** This transcription was done through computer software, so there could be errors throughout the text. ***

Guy: 1:11

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Davenport. Hi, Jamie, how you doing?

Jamie: 1:15

Good. How are you?

Guy: 1:16

How you doing?

Jamie: 1:17

How you doing? From Friends?

Guy: 1:20

It is from friends. It just struck me there the way I said that. That sounded very Friends. Yeah, we are back on the Davenport. Yes. Thanks for tuning in everybody. It is early December. Yeah, we're recording this.

Jamie: 1:35

That's a great time of year. I do find the older I get the faster December goes like I'm just like we can't we have two more weeks.

Guy: 1:43

I guess. Yeah, I'm not even on. It's not even early December. It's insane.

Jamie: 1:46

Yeah, I mean, the kids have finals next week. And it's been cold for sand for us Southern California kids like yesterday, I could not get warm. I went and bought a space heater for my office.

Guy: 1:58

What did you we contemplated turning the heat on? And I'm going

Jamie: 2:01

to because I was like, feel my nose. Days like it's called.

Guy: 2:07

While we're on that thing last night, I felt my nose, my nose, the tip of my nose. But I think for those who don't live in San Diego, that is a big thing. We don't really use the heat or the air or the air conditioning. Yeah. And so there is this time where you like when you have company? Yes. Where you have to like to turn it on. I don't know, we haven't turned it on yet. And then you look at your

Jamie: 2:29

thermostat. And I put 60 degrees in the house. I was like drinking herbal tea this morning. I was just like,

Guy: 2:39

cool. I went and showed Kate how to like put an extra blanket on her bed.

Jamie: 2:43

It's only like two weeks of the year but it's it'll be at for Christmas. So it's like I think it's supposed to rain again Monday and Tuesday. So it's like I kind of like it because it feels festive right now. But yeah, yeah, it's yeah, we'll be surfing on Christmas Day. So it is.

Guy: 2:59

It is a unique thing to hear. Erin. When we first moved down here years ago, I didn't believe cuz she's like, Oh, we had ice and I remember it was in the 30s. Yeah, no way. No, yeah. You have cactus in New York. There's no and then be like, oh, yeah, it can get

Jamie: 3:14

cold, cold, especially at night. We're during the day. It feels nice. But at night, as soon as the sun goes down, it can get pretty cold. So when people come to visit, I think they're like, I'm going to San Diego. I'm just gonna wear shorts. Right? And they're like, can I borrow a hoodie?

Guy: 3:29

Yeah, one of my brothers every time he visits it seems to be the rainy weekend. Yeah, he's I think it rains a more than you think. Yeah. No, just one week.

Jamie: 3:39

That's right. If you look at our rainfall, you'll see

Guy: 3:43

look at my porch backyard, right. So celebrating the season.

Jamie: 3:47

Yes, I got up early. I got up early today because Olivia Rodrigo tickets went on sale around the country. And I thought, Oh, this would be awesome surprise for my 14 year old child, you know, and I sat on, I sat in the queue for an hour only to be told there were no tickets left. I'm like,

Guy: 4:06

what, by the way, Mackenzie? Spoiler.

Jamie: 4:08

Spoiler I did try but you're not going. And then when tickets did show up there were like 319 apiece to stand. That's not even for a seat.

Guy: 4:19

Yeah. And what do they say? I think you get box seats.

Jamie: 4:23

For less than that. And I've been to many concerts in my day, but I'm like, come on. Olivia make this accessible for these 14 year olds. I can't pay$700 to go to a concert. So if anyone has any hookups, right for Olivia Rodrigo, there.

Guy: 4:40

You have a fan and a daughter of a fan. The show here Yes.

Jamie: 4:45

When you're trying to make it like the best Christmas surprise and you're like, I guess I guess it's not gonna work out. So anyway,

Guy: 4:55

well, before we get into our topic today, that typical reminders, you know, Follow, like, subscribe, and leave a review. We'd love to hear from you. And it also helps keep the show going for those that are new to the show. The algorithms are always changing. And the more engagement and reviews and five star reviews that we have, the better the show gets.

Jamie: 5:17

The other day I was looking, I was just like Mindlessly scrolling through Instagram, because that's what you do sometimes. And my friend actually had this funny my she's really witty. So a little shout out to my friend test. We investigated child abuse together many years ago. And she's the one I think I've talked about this story before that one day she and I memorized all the lyrics to gangster.

Guy: 5:40

Oh, nice. Okay,

Jamie: 5:42

like we like here we are these two young 20 somethings in her Saturn, you know, singing gangster,

Guy: 5:49

super gangster, the Saturn read that picture there. It was pretty face time. It was like that light purple, maybe color.

Jamie: 5:57

It was green. And

Guy: 6:00

that was the other color. Either light purple, or that forest green

Jamie: 6:04

was probably 96 When did that song come out? 97. So anyway, she was painting her bathroom. And it was like this all night project. And she was just saying like, Oh, my friend Jamie kept me company, even though she wasn't in there painting with me. And so I was laughing Amal, I wish I had been painting with you because we would have been singing gangsters. Not listening to the podcast, but I just appreciated that the podcast got her through her project.

Guy: 6:29

Yeah, we travel with you when it makes a road trip go really quick. So yeah, if you know someone that might benefit from that, let them tune in. Yeah, share it with them. So today, our topic, how to be contentious. Just kidding. I was just gonna do it backwards. How to be disagreeable. How to disagree and not be disagreeable.

Jamie: 6:48

Right? We hear this phrase a lot, right? Yeah, I

Guy: 6:52

think when we were talking about it, I was like, this does feel like I've heard this quite a bit. And

Jamie: 6:56

I say it to couples and parents and kid or teen teens and parents.

Guy: 7:01

Yeah, we do hear it. And I did some Googling and stumble upon why it's kind of in in popular culture, too. Because in 2020, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is actually famous for saying this. She actually said, You can disagree without being disagreeable. It's an example our country could use right now. Yeah, you know, and this was during a particularly tumultuous time. Yeah. But it's It's some good words to get curious about.

Jamie: 7:30

Well, that's why I think in the last, I mean, well, ever since social media has been around, I am not a comment reader. Because people get so disagreeable and contentious. And I think, hate people. We don't have to have the same opinions about things. Yeah. And so, I mean, but I can't even handle that. If a football team wins, then we have to get this like contentious. You know, the comment section can get so laborious and about who's right and who did something wrong. And then, you know, people get so heated, and I just think it escalates quickly. Yeah, I'd like to see what the correlation is from when social media came out and blood pressure medication? Because I bet there's a correlation, right? I just think sometimes we get ourselves so worked up on things that are not the essential things.

Guy: 8:19

Yeah. Because if you really step back and ask the question, what's important here? Right? You know, you have strong feelings about it. Sure. Is it really important to your day, your week, your life goals? I don't know. You know, that's, that's where that curiosity can really take you down a path of enlightenment and self realization, that in the moment is really easy to throw away.

Jamie: 8:42

Right. I'm a big advocate for passion, like feel passion for things and feel passionate about your beliefs and feel passionate about your NFL team. I don't care but but make room for others to all have their own passion. Yeah,

Guy: 8:54

exactly. Right. I think that's where, especially of late, it feels like there isn't space for

Jamie: 9:01

that. No. And sometimes I find myself not sharing things, because I don't want I just don't want the disagreeable part of it. Like, why can't we just have an intelligent conversation and have a different sense of opinion? Right, right. And like the art of respect each other?

Guy: 9:20

Yeah, the art of debate. Right is getting lost, right?

Jamie: 9:25

And you know, and I actually did speech and debate in high school, and I loved it. And now our girls are doing their Model UN, which is kind of sad. Yeah. And they're learning this skill of being able to disagree without being disagreeable. And I always tell my daughter, this is such an important skill in all of your relationships, that you can disagree with each other. And that doesn't mean you don't respect each other or you don't honor each other. But you give each other space to be different. And it's funny because we also, even though we're in this like world where comments sections can get so crazy and mean, but we're Also in this culture that's like love everybody except everyone, and I'm like, tolerate everything. How are we doing this on both sides? You

Guy: 10:09

know, it feels like a contradiction. Yeah, doesn't it? Because yeah, in the same sentence will tolerate anything except that thing that I don't agree with that I don't agree with. Right. And and so it does feel a little pick and choose.

Jamie: 10:23

Yeah. And I don't I don't like it. So I'm glad we're talking about it.

Guy: 10:29

Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting. You know, if I love the color orange, and orange is a polarizing color.

Jamie: 10:38

Orange is a happy, it's a

Guy: 10:39

happy color. But it's not a lot of people's favorite now. It's not the typical the blue the green. Yeah, the red, you know. And my wife's favorite color is gray. She's nodding yes, I'm not making this up. And I think they're coming Mary

Jamie: 10:57

Mary, are unfinished business.

Guy: 11:02

So, I, Aaron's never pushed on me saying, What's wrong with you? Orange is gross. Or, you know, she would never wear orange. She might not paint your house or she does not decorate an orange. She does not buy orange things. Me. Sometimes I'll see a color. And I'll be like, Oh, that's orange. What is it? I don't even know what it is. I'm curious to know. And, but we own a lot of orange things. Because of my affinity for this. But she tolerates it, she allows it and it's not even a point of discussion. And likewise to gray. No, you know, I might have some opinions that that's not really a color. Strong neutral. But it's okay. And I appreciate that she has that preference. Yeah. And then we can do our own thing and our colors and we can work together. Yeah. And I think the art of that. Or even the it's a skill, the skill. Yeah, the skill is has been lost, or it's, it's not being emphasized.

Jamie: 11:59

Yeah. We may do a better job when we're face to face than we do virtually. You know, because I think virtually, I think people find that keyboard courage in a way. That is an actually hate that term keyboard courage, because I think it's keyboard. Cowards, you know, like, you just are saying things that well, because the accountability is missing. Yeah. And it's just anonymous. And I can just be mean and Henri and, and not, and I can just say what I want, regardless of where it lands and who it hurts. And

Guy: 12:32

it's pretty careless, you think about it. Yeah.

Jamie: 12:34

And so I but I think you can share your opinions and disagree. Even virtually right and not be so disagreeable.

Guy: 12:42

Well, like in in debate, when you when you learn how to debate. Yeah, you know, you, you come with a strong viewpoint, you have supporting statements and supporting information to back up that

Jamie: 12:52

viewpoint, because you've done some research. Yes, you have information

Guy: 12:56

and you give space to hear the other side. Yeah. And that's, that's built into the debate. And you're

Jamie: 13:03

listening to understand what they're saying, so that you can think about it. Does that land with the information you have, and the research you've done? So

Guy: 13:12

you can constructively move the conversation forward? Absolutely. Because if a debate like we're having debate, right, I present my point, and then you present a counterpoint. And then I say, no. That's not a debate and the debate.

Jamie: 13:27

I guess it's over. Right. So imagine that happening in marriage or parent teenage relationships? It does. It does. It does. And so it's learning how to give each other that space and to disagree without being disagreeable. And if you think about it, we're I mean, we're all parenting teenagers here in our little studio, but sometimes we do that with our teenagers. I'm like, No, I mean, no. And the debates over and I'm done with this conversation. I have been tyrannical in that way before. But at the same time, there there are lots of times I'm like, tell me why this is so important to you. Tell me why. And the answer still might be No, but we get there in a lot better place emotionally when I've listened to

Guy: 14:11

gives room for discussion. Yeah, and and inputs from the other side. I grew up same thing. I I guess I've had a history of being a debater. Yeah. And my mom would come like, this is not open for debate. Yeah, I know, you think you can debate this? I know,

Jamie: 14:25

I always tell my daughter, I'm saving for law school, because she's really great at it.

Guy: 14:30

But it was kind of a boundary that, you know, unknowingly it was being put out there to say, okay, yeah, sometimes you have to fall in line, but that's in the structure of a family and a parent kind of sharing guidance that I might not be aware of.

Jamie: 14:43

Yeah. And so then that that poses the question, right. So how do we disagree without being so contentious?

Guy: 14:50

Right? And leaning into the canceled culture that kind of comes with Yeah, that

Jamie: 14:55

can get tough and I believe strongly and boundaries so I And I don't think that canceled culture is about boundaries all the time. And so and that can be a whole episode, right, the canceled culture but, and that could bring up a lot of comments from from listeners. But at the same time, I think sometimes we do things in the name of something without understanding what it is, like, we might say Kancil culture is a boundary. Well, is it? You know, is it truly understanding where you and another person begins? Or is it uncomfortable? So, let's end this or, you know, rather than open up a discussion that might be really hard and uncomfortable, but productive, right, right, and educational and empowering.

Guy: 15:42

And I think a foundation of that, and and when we were preparing for this, you mentioned this earlier, you need to know your boundaries, and which also means you need to know yourself. Yeah. So that when a controversial topic presents itself, you know, where you stand, yeah. And you're not just, you know, triggered, and then thrown into the ring and defending something that maybe you don't even really know that much about.

Jamie: 16:04

And, and it goes back to the whole concept. And when I'm working with couples, when I'm defensive, it's because I'm feeling criticized. Yeah. So I have to always look at the conversation. Like maybe this is a conversation I should be a part of.

Guy: 16:18

Yeah, going back to the debate metaphor. Like, if you showed up to a debate unprepared, and someone says something, and they're prepared. You're gonna fight, you're still gonna debate

Jamie: 16:29

right? Even, but that arts been lost, because I even think about the last few presidential debates. Yeah, those aren't debate. It's they're not debates. It's just like criticism, defensiveness, criticism, defensiveness, and I'm just attacked with a name called Yeah. And it's like, it gets actually it's abusive. And so I'm always like, can we just talk about, like, we get your all of you up, they're gonna have different opinions, and I want to hear them. Because I want to make a judgement based on your opinion. And actually, when

Guy: 16:59

you start, I don't want the marketing No, right. I want the content. And the contention

Jamie: 17:03

makes me just want to turn the TV off. So then, and then people are like, what did you watch the debates? And I'm like, What would I have learned? What I mean, nothing. Except who's more abusive than the other? You know, it's like, honestly, so I think we've this this concept. It's not something that we're seeing, like we see it on politics, or we see it in schools, or we see, we don't I mean, I got a call from the high school last night, right? That there were some it was an a message saying that some kids had started some unauthorized Instagram accounts, posting pictures of students and faculty, unbeknownst to them, right? It was like, people not wearing their masks, or people sleeping in weird places, or whatever. And he was like, please do not support these, you know, we've reported this to Instagram. And he's saying, Please don't follow these accounts. And because it gets into bullying, because then the comments,

Guy: 17:56

people are, you know, right, used to end up shaming people. They're

Jamie: 17:59

passionate quote about what they're saying. And it just leads to hurt. And especially when you're looking at high school kids, even though they're older, they're still developing. And so if someone gets a picture posted of them without their permission, and unbeknownst to them, and then the comment section is mean and cruel or teasing. It just doesn't fare well in your own psychological development. And so this this skill of disagreeing is a skill. being disagreeable just requires reaction

Guy: 18:33

that anyone can that's a natural state. Yeah. And I'll throw that down. But

Jamie: 18:37

but learning to disagree without being disagreeable is a skill. So that's what I'm excited that we can talk about

Guy: 18:44

today. Yeah, so I think three points that I would like to share on this. Number one, show compassion. Yeah. Right. And there's lots of ways that shows up. Yeah. Well, and that the foundation of that is that we all have worth. Yeah. Right. So if, in that example of the Instagram accounts, you know, we're putting ourselves above whoever's in the photo, and then that feels entitled to be able to make fun of it, then well,

Jamie: 19:10

and you attach a voice to those comments. So for example, like, if you think about what the research has shown about a person's voice, it has a lot to do with how they're perceived, like the tone you're using. So you can say, Oh, hey, why didn't you do the dishes? Or it's like, oh, my gosh, why don't you do the dishes? You know, I mean, there's just two very different tones. But the words are exactly the same.

Guy: 19:36

Right? And then third would be Hey, I noticed the dishes weren't done. Yeah. Tell me about that. Yeah.

Jamie: 19:41

I'm curious about that. Coach guy, right.

Guy: 19:45

About these dishes. Right? Even that tone, right, right. That tone is not quite right. Yes. I'm curious about these dishes in a facetious kind of way, which

Jamie: 19:52

is funny cuz we even use emojis for tone. So when we're texting like if

Guy: 19:57

I know what all those emojis mean.

Jamie: 19:59

Yeah. My, my daughter, and I have this little thing going about her making her bed. So when it's not made, I'll kind of send a picture of it. And with a funny emoji, like, I'm not, I'm not harping on you, but your end of the deal is

Guy: 20:14

shot today, you've agreed to me.

Jamie: 20:17

So then she'll type type back like, oh, sorry, but it's not like, I want you to feel bad because you didn't make your bed. So we have this little agreement, you know, and but it's when I find myself using emojis to make sure she knows, hey, I'm not, I'm not criticizing you, or, you know, like, we're just kind of jabbing each other. And so we even will do that virtually right to try to bring across our tone. Because being a parent of a teenager, there's times when she's like, well, she said, and the way she says that I'm like, or what if she said, You know, I just changed the tone of it.

Guy: 20:49

Right? Same words, yes.

Jamie: 20:51

It will be like, Wow, I don't think that's what she meant. And I'm like, Well, I think we should ask, yeah, because it because then we start attaching stories. Right? Right. And so I think we have to part of that compassion comes in, being mindful of your tone, and how you're coming across. And compassion is also not coming towards someone with you. Why do you think that

Guy: 21:15

for those years, there's a finger finger pointing finger falling

Jamie: 21:20

back on you statements, when you're disagreeing with someone is going to just be combative. Because think about anytime you've had a difference of opinion, and someone said, Well, you're wrong. Or how can you think that? Or the how they're, you're an idiot, or you're, you know, you don't know? I mean, so if you're using the word you, you're probably being disagreeable? I'm just saying,

Guy: 21:48

yeah, it's not it's it's not the generous way to address something. Right?

Jamie: 21:52

And it's accusatory, yeah, it is. And that's always gonna lead to some sort of combativeness, because think about it with our kids. I'm like, you didn't do what I asked. They get defensive.

Guy: 22:04

Because the underlying message is you aren't worthy, right, of whatever it is that we're doing here. Yeah. Right, because you let me down, didn't finish something. And so it really goes back to, we're all equal. And we did things differently. Yeah. And yeah, maybe if you've agreed to make the bed, you don't make the bed. I can't say hey, the bed is unmade.

Jamie: 22:26

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, too, because when I think about compassion, and I'm thinking in this context, I'm thinking about our tone and our delivery and our body language. And I'm also thinking about how we cast doubt sometimes. And that's those filler words. So say you're sharing your all your passion about, you know, a topic that could be a little could be about cars, right? And I'm and I'm saying go, right, you're talking about the Ford Bronco. And I'm like, I'm like, What's wrong with it? Yeah, right. You see what I'm saying?

Guy: 23:03

So even like the Ford Bronco, Wait, why'd you do what's what's that pause?

Jamie: 23:06

Like, are you say, uh, I don't know, like those filler, those little filler words like I'm an AR?

Guy: 23:14

Or the eye roll or,

Jamie: 23:17

you know, what it does is confusing, no doubt. Yes. So then it's already kind of, it's not as combative as the use statement. But it still signals doubt. Like, I actually doubt what you're saying. And so it is kind of a more passive aggressive combativeness. Okay. You know, that might be a straight stretch to call it passive aggressive. But it's that, you know, it takes away from the credibility of what the other person is saying.

Guy: 23:48

Yeah, because the doubt plays out in me. Yeah. There's either something wrong with my choice. Yeah. Or I'm, I'm not intelligent enough to make the good choice. If you can internalize it,

Jamie: 23:59

or quote, the right choice, right? Yeah, yeah.

Guy: 24:01

So the next one that I have on my list is pride. Ah, how that shows up in being disagreeable.

Jamie: 24:08

How it cometh before the fall. Right?

Guy: 24:11

So we need to check our pride because I think of some of the most ridiculous debates I've gotten into arguments. And a lot of time, it's based on me wanting to be right. Yeah, not necessarily even the content of what it is.

Jamie: 24:25

Well, and I think that's why it's important to do your research, right. So if you have good information, and you're debating something with somebody, yeah. And they say something that maybe you hadn't heard, or you didn't know, instead of just pretending you didn't know or you hadn't heard that and fighting back or just pretending they're wrong. Yeah. Or digging in your heels because you need to be right. It's just saying, Oh, I hadn't heard that. Where did you read that? I'd like to read that article. Or I would like to get more information about that. I mean, we see this so much right now with COVID. And the vaccine. I mean, it's like our society is inundated with these issues. Right now,

Guy: 25:00

where I know, all right, and I can't be wrong, right? And therefore your comment is wrong. Right? And therefore, I don't have to listen to it. But if

Jamie: 25:09

we really does, but I think and we see that happening, but I think what's healthy is being able to have a conversation and be like, Oh, I, I hadn't heard that. Or I can see why you would be nervous about that. Or I can, you know, start to engage in this healthy dialogue

Guy: 25:25

and keep the humility there. Right. Yeah, it's, it's pretty. I think I can go out there and say that nobody knows everything. Right? Yeah. But we're not gonna find a person in the world that knows everything. Right? And so to Sunni yourself, right, including me, right? Pick a car, if we start talking about it. I might know a lot about it. But I can I can be humble enough to say, I didn't know that, you know, maybe that was something I wasn't aware of. Yeah. And and so share your viewpoint.

Jamie: 25:54

Well, and I think when you're being cautious of pride, then you won't get personal. Because if you feel backed up against a wall in a conversation, then you go for the jugular,

Guy: 26:04

you know, yeah, we go to retaliation really quick. You'll go

Jamie: 26:07

to their upbringing, or you'll go to their religion, or you'll go to their gender or whatever it is, right, then you start getting personal. And that is just the low blows. You have a conversation, right?

Guy: 26:20

Because there's no way to back if I am stuck in my pride, and I won't acknowledge that I may have been wrong. I have to retaliate. However, cheaply, I can.

Jamie: 26:30

And when we get personnel, it's just an intimidation tactic. Right? I mean, and so

Guy: 26:35

we've opted in for Yeah, a lack of position. Right.

Jamie: 26:39

And that comes from Pride. Yeah. Because I don't want to be perceived as not right. Or not, you know, knowledgeable or whatever that is.

Guy: 26:50

Yeah. And if we're in a prideful position, it's really easy to fall into contempt. And we've talked about that the Four Horsemen and judgment, which, again, that's where we start picking them apart as a person or their choices, or whatever it is. Yeah. And that's, that's where you can end up down that path where you didn't expect to go. Yeah, in the conversation. Yeah, I was just sitting here having a friendly conversation. And now I'm fighting with you. Yeah. And I'm making fun of you. And you're attacking me. And pretty soon, it's pretty hard to back out me like, I mean, actually, Aaron, and I do pretty well, I, Aaron calls me on it. And I think we've talked in previous episodes where, you know, she has a signal, right? She might put her hand on my arm. Like, that's compassion, or I get a little be nice. Right? And then like, oh, yeah, I'm not being nice. What am I talking about? This isn't even important. And I guess I've found the skill of myself to just laugh it off. Yeah. And be like, I'm sorry. This is ridiculous. I Yeah. And then we can, you know, it's almost like it just cuts the conversation where it was. Yeah. And you go back to where you want it to be?

Jamie: 27:55

Yeah. No, I think I think it's it's important. And I think for me, I just think about, again, I go back to the word skill, it's a skill, these things actually don't come as naturally as we want them to, because naturally, we want to get defensive. Naturally, we want to protect ourselves from being wrong. It's not that doesn't mean we're human, because

Guy: 28:16

naturally, we're centered on our on ourselves. Yeah. Right. Well,

Jamie: 28:20

what we feel. And so that's why I really want to emphasize that being able to disagree without being contentious or disagreeable is a skill that you can learn. Yes. And it doesn't matter.

Guy: 28:34

And you can still get your opinions out. Yeah, doesn't mean that you take everything and don't have no opinion. I think that's one of the fallacies people feel that the opposite of this is. I'll just be totally agreeable. Yeah. And you can still disagree. Yeah. Like, that's, I think the point of this is, we don't have to just be agreeable to everything and take it all. Yeah, we can disagree. I can say I don't like orange, or, you know, yeah. And I can

Jamie: 29:00

be okay with that. Well, and sometimes when couples get into real, being really disagreeable, and they're making it up in their head, kind of the response of their partner, one of the tools I give them when they're, when they get into it, and they're in therapy. I'm like, Okay, next time this happens, and she's getting passionate about something, I just want you to bridge the gap, like, I want you to touch her arm or put your hand on her back and be like, Okay, I hear you. Now, what do you need me to do? Or whatever, like just just defuse a little bit because she might be going through the old script in her head or, or the husband who are the for whichever partner I'm working with. And I'm just trying to slow that down and change the track, right like so that we go a different direction. And so if you feel like a conversation is escalating, check yourself. Don't check the person like if this person needs to calm down if you know like,

Guy: 29:51

it's never called the other person, right? It's

Jamie: 29:53

checking it's checking your body language, checking your tone, checking what how You're delivering, you know, because sometimes if

Guy: 30:02

I miss expressions, you're sometimes getting really defensive.

Jamie: 30:06

In a conversation, I'll say, I'm sorry, I have not meaning to criticize what you're what you're saying. And so help me understand what I'm misunderstanding. And then that can you know, things like that can defuse the situation.

Guy: 30:19

Yeah, I mean, timeout, pause, you know, whatever it is, it's fair to say, I've been in situations where the conversation gets totally off track.

Jamie: 30:29

Well, and it's funny because I was thinking about body language, how you can be like, Oh, no, I'm fine. But you're like sitting with your arms folded, and you're like, the fake or you're like waiting for your turn. And they're like, Well, are you mad? And you're like, No, I'm fine. And I'm like, you finish. Finish what you have to say, you know, and then you're like, just waiting for your turn. You're not even really listening is

Guy: 30:49

like, doesn't feel like you're I can never deliver it that way. Either. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're fine. Oh, yeah. It doesn't look good. Right? I'm just pouring fuel on the fire.

Jamie: 31:00

No, now you're

Guy: 31:01

right. Yeah. It's so catchy. It is a huge skill. Like he says it is. But it does. It focuses on yourself like how am I presenting? Yep. And is that causing triggering behavior on the person I'm engaging with? And then if you see that happening for their side, yeah. How am I reacting to that? And am I adding fuel?

Jamie: 31:21

There have been times when it's a group discussion, maybe like a bunch of people are talking about something, and I'm engaged in the conversation as well. And it takes a turn. And I can see that it's just gonna go south. And so then they're like, Hey, what happened to you? I'm like, oh, yeah, that was super unproductive. So I exited that. Yeah. My strategy sometimes is like, and I'm out. And it's easier to do that virtually. I might unfollow, or mute or I'm not, I'm not I'm not going to engage. Because

Guy: 31:48

you're we are constantly evaluating value. Right. So you're gauging is this valuable? Is it productive? Is it helpful? Yeah. And that is that is an option to walk away to have an out to say, You know what, there was good intention here. And it's not coming to pass. Right. I'm okay.

Jamie: 32:07

Stepping away from Yeah, yeah. So is the third 1/3

Guy: 32:12

one is love. So, you know,

Jamie: 32:15

it's not a Beatle song.

Guy: 32:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's a we hear it, you know, love more. Yeah. It's your thoughts and language.

Jamie: 32:26

And I'm going to go back to boundaries as being part of that love. And in this context, the way I would, or what I would call that is knowing your non negotiables. So someone could come and have a really powerful discussion with me. And we could disagree. But I'm not I know, my values are not going to be negotiable, right? Or my belief system is non negotiable. So I can listen, and I can respect where you're coming from. I'm not going to give you my values. I'm not going to give you my you know, be like, Oh, well, I guess I'll throw this away. Because you told me it doesn't.

Guy: 33:02

I think what I'm hearing is that I'm not diminished. Right? If you are differences by our differences, if you disagree, I'm not diminished, right? If you don't like orange, I'm, I'm cool. Okay. I love orange still. Yeah. And and I can love you for your differences, right? And for where you stand, right?

Jamie: 33:22

This is what happens in adolescence. That's so harmful, right? Because you might be like, Oh, I totally love. Fill in the blank. And your friends are like, Oh my gosh, it's so stupid. And all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, I guess I don't really like

Guy: 33:33

being a Raiders fan for 20 years. Right. Were you? I love the Raiders. Right. I should be out. La La Raiders.

Jamie: 33:46

What's wrong down there? Vegas. Right?

Guy: 33:48

Yeah. I got to go to a game store.

Jamie: 33:50

Yeah, I mean, the stadiums. Amazing. Like every time I drive by a mic. Oh, would be fine.

Guy: 33:53

I want to go. Come on. Bring it back. Yeah. But but my husband's still

Jamie: 33:57

frothy about. It probably would

Guy: 34:02

convert. But I mean, I could easily be offended, right? Or I could be like, Oh, what's wrong with my choices? Why, why? And then you can do the math you like, yeah, maybe it isn't wrong. But if

Jamie: 34:14

that's what brings you happiness, yeah. Great. Yeah. There is room to sit in difference. Yes. And that's what we have.

Guy: 34:22

And that's where the love is. Right? That's because you can just love people for who they are, or for what they like, and and appreciate their passion for what they're doing. Yeah. It doesn't mean that I have to join them. It doesn't mean that I agree with them. Right. But it really adds color to life.

Jamie: 34:40

Well, and I think, you know, as we kind of finish this conversation, I think part of that love is assuming best intent. Yes. So

Guy: 34:50

as I I'd say 90% of the time in today's world, we assume the worst intent,

Jamie: 34:55

right? And since my context is therapy, I'm always thinking about clients. But I think I always say this to my clients I in in the 20 plus years I've been sitting in my chair, I have never seen a husband or wife, who woke up in the morning thinking, how can I hurt my partner today? Yeah. But we hurt each other because of the things we say or don't say, or what you do or don't do. And I think when we get into healthy conversation, and we just assume best intent from those around us, it's easier to sit in that space and be like, huh, I don't feel that way. But, and and to know your audience and to know your timing, right, that maybe right now isn't the place or time I'm gonna speak up for what I think. Because I think that this group may not be in a place to receive what I have to say,

Guy: 35:47

right? And how important is it to my values to be to make a point in front of this group? Yeah. Right. I just this morning, I was reading on a car forum. And someone was talking about a feature on their vehicle that they didn't know how to use. Yeah. And 10 people chimed in with kind of how stupid that was. They didn't know how to use it. You're like, right, because I don't know if people like to your point about couples, I don't think people log in most of us log in to Facebook or something. Curious, like, oh, what can I find today? Right. And then that quickly turns into, oh, my gosh, I'm going to tell them how stupid they are. Yeah, right. And I still would love to think that 90% of those people aren't going in with that intention. Yeah. But then they get triggered. And then they just let it go. Right? They don't stop it. Yeah. And I love that if you give them best intention, hey, here's someone who doesn't. Maybe their car didn't come with the owner's manual. And they're brand new to cars, and they're so excited about cars, and they're excited to be part of this group. And these they think these, these are friend, I think this is a safe, safe place. And I'm gonna ask about this,

Jamie: 36:50

my car friends about my car, right? That?

Guy: 36:53

I am. There's hope, because there was always one or two people that do say, Oh, hey, that's it. Yeah, I didn't know what that did either. And here's what it does. And good luck. Congratulations on your car. Yeah. Right. And you're like, yes,

Jamie: 37:04

does not feel so much better. I'm telling you. I really wonder if there's a correlation with social media and the internet and blood pressure medication. Because it just gets people so wound up. And I just think if we could just settle down, take a breath with there's so much room for different opinions. And, and yours included. Yes. And there's a place for all of us. And at the end of the day, there's just not a whole lot in this world. That's just black and white. There's just a lot of more than one right ways of doing things.

Guy: 37:39

Yes. That's a great. That's a great all encompassing takeaway. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about compassion, showing compassion. We've talked about checking your pride. And we've talked about loving more, and and accept that. Yeah, there. It's all gray. Yeah. And if we try to put it into black and white, we, you know, very concrete terms. It it's gonna go to contention. It sets us up for contention. Yeah, yeah. Because think of going back to our debates right in high school. I never, I never remember the teacher coming in and saying, here's the answer to the debate guy. There wasn't one there never was one. Yeah. And that was, that was the beauty of yeah, that we could we could talk about this thing. And it was open ended to see where we went.

Jamie: 38:22

Yeah. I think what's neat watching our girls do it is they're in Model UN. So they're representing countries. Yeah. Right. So I think your daughter was Switzerland.

Guy: 38:32

Oh, no, she was Belgium was right. And then Vietnam, and another one. And

Jamie: 38:36

my daughter was South Africa. And Vietnam, or no, she was the United States, in Vietnam. And so it was interesting watching them gather information. And what's what was so neat as they, they they were at this thing all day on a Saturday. And when I picked them up, and and our daughters were on opposing sides, yes. And when they got in the car, just big smiles. And this will happen. And they're and they were able to have this. They're learning this skill, right? They were totally on opposite sides. But they were still friends when they got in the car. Yeah.

Guy: 39:08

And I love to that they didn't go along the historical path. I mean, we can all look up and see how things went with that conflict. And they were allowed to make a different Yeah. And their outcome, you know, wasn't exactly the same as what history played out. Yeah. So

Jamie: 39:24

so it's just a it's a skill that we have got to be teaching our kids and

Guy: 39:29

and be mindful of ourselves. Yeah, because I just model it. Yeah, like, because if we're not modeling it, our kids are gonna think that we're giving them the end of the debate. Here's the answer. Just do it this way,

Jamie: 39:38

right. And we see that right. I mean, if we don't want our kids to

Guy: 39:42

a lot of a lot of apples don't fall very far from the tree. Right?

Jamie: 39:45

Right. So anyway, interesting things to think about

Guy: 39:51

disagreeing without being disagreeable. I'm, there's a lot more share your thoughts on it. What do you guys do in your family?

Jamie: 39:56

I certainly haven't mastered it, but I'm working on it.

Guy: 40:01

I'm mindful enough to know when I've stepped in it which a lot. Oh, thanks for thanks for joining me here on the Davenport. Jamie. Always a pleasure. And if you are wanting to find out ways to support the show, please check out our Patreon page in the show notes. Very good. It's been great to be on the diving board this week. Have a great week, guys next week. Thanks so much for listening this week. Stay connected by following us on Instagram or Facebook at the Davenport podcast. For more information on coaching services with Guy, visit his website, TheCoachGuy.net. For additional information regarding counseling services, the Daring Way Curriculum, or relationship counseling, please go to JamiePyattLCSW.com. The Davenport Podcast is a production of the Davenport Education Group. Show hosts are Guy Balogh and Jamie Pyatt. Our producer and editor is Erin Balogh. Our outreach manager and production coordinator is Monica Strang. Thanks for listening.

Jamie: 41:06

The Davenport podcast is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. Although Jamie is a licensed clinical social worker and guy as a professional life coach. The Information and opinions shared by the hosts and their guests are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. The information on the show does not create a client therapist or coaching relationship and should not be taken as professional advice or guidance. Please consult with your physician or a qualified health care provider regarding any medical or mental health conditions.